Ultimate Fast Road 205 Gti

[eob 7]

I was thinking about this on the way into work in the sunshine after a weekend of spannering my own. What would be the ultimate incarnation of my own 205 GTi, within reason, whereby you’re not throwing money at it to the point that you’d honestly be better off with a Lancia Delta Integrale.

What I’m aiming for, I suppose, is the ultimate fast road GTi. Improved certainly, but not exactly a caged, 300bhp, 320lbft sprung (you know who you are ) machine.

It should be taken as given that all the rubber, suspension, arm, spinning and turning bits are either new or in fantastic condition

I came up with the following spec.

Engine

1905cc Mi16 alloy block

Restored to factory, new shells, reground valves, rings etc.

Steel sump with pump extension

Hitachi hi-torque starter

Cone filter, maybe standard 405 airbox.

Slight skim.

High lift cams

4-branch manifold

Stainless exhaust

Motronic 3.2 management for reliability & ease of repair.

5-speed 1.6 close ratio gearbox with diesel 5th

Interior

Completely standard bar a complete refresh with the seats retrimmed in OMP/Sparco fabric around the outsides with the ‘pattern’ bit from the original screens retained.

Pioneer 3-way speakers in the factory locations. Non oxygen copper wiring for the speakers throughout.

Blaupunkt Seattle MP72 head unit with aux in (woah, futuristic man) and a Bluetooth receiver with the buttons/display tuned to match the orange/red 205’s interior lighting.

In other words, a completely ‘factory’ looking interior, but looking like it could belong in a Peugeot showroom in ’92 albeit with far more durable seats and a hell of a lot better sound quality without adding weight.

No amps, subs, 6x9’s…

Electronics

Completely new custom wiring loom all round, but Arduino microcontroller powered. An Arduino Mega undeneath the steering column that connects to another in the engine bay and a single length of CAT5 cable slung between both. No more tracing electronic errors required and a considerably lighter loom. Eg. The interior fan on a pulse width modulated set-up. Plug in a laptop and away you go to tweak settings and repair where necessary.

Suspension

Complete refresh with Bilstein B4’s all round, Eibach progressive springs on the front. Custom lower arms with standard rubber bushings but the ability to change the balljoints independently from the arms with 306 items. Hollow cast 306 hubs.

New torsion bars and a refurb’ed rear axle on the rear with grease nipples. Drum brakes for simplicity on the rear.

Frashly hot dip galvanised subframe with the lower arm mounts reinforced.

Braking

306 HDi on the front, standard rears, with the usual uprated master cylinder and a larger gauge vacuum hose to the normal fluffy one This is just a personal preference. I hate the fluffy one

Weight Reduction

Narrow japanese battery on a custom aluminium mount behind the gearbox, flat against the firewall where the expansion tank normally goes, leaving the space where the battery normally is for the Mi16’s induction.

Aluminium bumper brackets all round.

Smaller Japanese alternator, lower capacity.

Steel sump / alloy radiator.

As many of the little brackets that hold little bits and pieces converted to aluminium/stainless as possible as an anti rust measure as anything else.

Plastic XU10 inlet manifold.

Bodywork

Completely factory standard looking. That’s where the similarities end

All of the plastic panels repainted in matt black.

All of those annoying rusty little bits and pieces, like the front foglight surrounds, hot-dip galvanised, POR15 base coat, couple of coats of primer and then a top coat in the factory colour.

New red inserts all round painted in a particular deep shade of red normally found on Daewoo’s (I’m serious ) and about eight coats of lacquer.

The shell would be a standard non-sunroof, stripped to the last, then hot dipped, POR15 over the top, primer, alpine white.

I would have a man with a shotgun stand over the paint process to make sure there was no filling and sanding which scored through the galvanise on the final prep.

Lots of underseal with the front inner wings properly bonded…

I do realise this is the nerdiest thread ever.

Forgive me.

Edited June 4, 2013 by eob

[GLPoomobile 958]

I've often thought about this too

Most of what you've described matches the sort of spec I'd aim for too.

Personally I'd go with a GTI6 inlet manifold and aftermarket management though. I think you can get a bit bogged down in trying to save weight though, and it soon gets out of hand when you are still in fantasy land. My attitude to that is to try and keep the GTI to it's original weight rather than trim excessively. So if you add a bit here, trim a bit somewhere else, but try not to get too OTT in either direction.

If you'd asked me this 10 years ago, my attitude to "comfort" would have been totally different. But these days I would prefer a more civilised GTI. Living north of the border, I'd definitely want heated seats and a heated windscreen, neither of which come with a big weight offset. I wouldn't want my ultimate GTI to be a summer use car only, so good heating is a must. On the flip side, I don't care much for air con (it's nice to have, but I've rarely used it in the cars I've driven that have had it).

Xsara sterring racks combined with electric power steering seem to be raved about by those who've done it, so I'd include that on my spec.

Apart from that, absolute top quality wiring and electricals throughout, so all new lightweight loom as you said, with trick systems and better components. I.e. better CL motors and better EW motors. Add in some fancy modern sound proofing materials to make the interior a bit quiter and you're done.

Edited June 4, 2013 by GLPoomobile

[eob 7]

Some awesome stuff there. The thing about heated seats is that... on a personal preference, they always, regardless of manufacturer, make me feel like I've soiled myself so that wouldn't personally be for me, but a heated front screen actually isn't that expensive and they use no additional weight.

 

The electric power steering conversion I've never heard of. I'd love to try a car that had had it done.

[Para 82 2 Cars]

If you are looking for a shell I know somebody in Dublin selling beautifull Miami shell from 94 never seen such a clean chassis. Sounds like a great plan, lots of work and time but it can turn out to be a great project.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Para

[jord294 92]

Some interesting input there.

 

but grease nipples do naff all when fitted to standard rear beam!

[welshpug 1,657]

1.8 block, 1.9 crank, 2.0 rods, custom pistons, J4R head, J4RS manifold, lumpy sticks, DTA, Sachell inlet, bodies.

 

MI gearbox, diff, 309 bones, bilstein gravel dampers, 21mm bars, 24mm arb.

 

Michelin tyres, 6.5 or 7" wide lightweight 15" alloy wheels.

 

AP 4 pots 270mm discs.

[GLPoomobile 958]

Only the uber nerdy need read on

 

So I've taken Eobs theme, and listed what my ultimate road spec would be. This is by no means exhaustive, and if I actually had the money to do a project like this, there'd no doubt be changes/evolutions along the way. But since this is fantasy GTI land, here's roughly what mine would look like....

 

 

Engine
1905cc Mi16 alloy block
Completely rebuilt using OE Pug parts where possible
Block skimmed and decked to increase compression
Slightly lairier inlet cam
Vernier pulleys
GTI6 inlet manifold with PTFE gasket

Custom alloy breather/oil filler, anodised black (no bling)
Custom carbon airbox mounted low between the gearbox and radiator/front panel
Lightweight starter
Lightweight alternator
Lightweight pulleys
Deletion of mechanical water pump. Replace with electric water pump allowing full control of flow and circulation with engine off.
All new sensors and senders
Mappable ECU (DTA/Emerald etc)
Custom built exhaust manifold (dependant on final engine spec and expected power/torque curve)
Custom SS exhaust designed to be quiet/non droning at cruise but suitably "sporty" under load, and not compromising flow too much.
Steel sump with pump extension and PTS baffles

Standard engine top mount and gearbox mount. Slightly upgraded lower mount.

Transmission

Mi16/VTS 'box

Quaife ATB

Sensible clutch

Decent driveshafts. Might have to be custom made since it's now hard to find good quality ones.

Miles' standard gear rods

Baker BM bronze bushes for the gear lever and shift L bracket

Throw reduced slightly. Not a fan of the throw being too short.

 

Engine bay etc

Alloy rad mounted on alloy lowering brackets

Small twin fans

306 battery box with ECU tray removed. In standard battery position.

Ph2 header tank, but in white rather than the OE black. With 306 cap.

Black silicone hoses

All hoses and wiring routed as neatly as possible. Hidden where possible, but not at the expense of practicality/maintenance.

All wiring routed through passenger side of bulkhead using marine spec twist lock bulk head connectors.

All unused holes, mounting points, studs etc removed/smoothed

No bling! Keep everything looking as subtle/factory standard as possible

Brake lines MUST be either as straight as possible or hidden from view under the lip on the scuttle panel (wonky pipes are a massive pet hate of mine on otherwise brilliantly done projects)

No washer bottle (see details further on....)

Decent (LOUD) twin air horns.

Interior
All Ph2 black

Late (Ph2.5) checked door cards

Classic Recaro Speed seats, retrimmed in black leather with red stitching, and centres done in red quartet fabric

Rear seats retrimmed to match

Matching gear lever gaiter

Heated front seats

Momo Corse steering wheel

Shell covered in Second Skin liquid sludge up to window height, and then lined with additional high spec sound deadening products in key areas to reduce road noise.

FIber washers and other anti-rattle products used when re-assembling interior trim

Lower dash sections reinforced with additional bracketing (thinking specifically of the lower drivers side trim)

Audiophile quality speakers in stock locations. 2 way coax in rear, and either 2 way coax in front, or 2 way comps with tweeters hidden (or at least discreetly mounted). Audiophile quality headunit, must be basic/retro looking and

have at least a 3.5mm input but pref a USB/SD slot.

Heated front screen

LED bulbs fitted throughout

Courteousy light design improved (has anyone ever had one that doesn't become temperamental?)

Sun shade clip design improved, so they don't rattle

Working coin tray lid/clip!

All pockets/glovebox lined with non-slip materials

306 rain sensitive wipers

Intermittent rear wiper

One touch windows (both up and down) for both sides. and full closure on the alarm

Illuminated window switches

Better CL motors

New EW motors

Alcantara headlining

Parcel shelf trimmed in same leather as seats

Boot fully retrimmed in charcoal carpet (no painted surfaces left on view)

No rear washer bottle (see pint further on....)

Discreet custom made storage bag mounted to back of seats, for essentials (including tyre weld)

Lashing eyes on boot floor and back seats for cargo net.

Remove crappy boot "tilt" sensor and replace with either contact switch or retrofit a switch controlled by the boot lock

All new thinwall wiring and connectors throughout, with improved earthing where necessary, and any superfluous wiring omitted.

Suspension

205 arms up front with Pug bushes

Bilstein B4's front and rear

Eibach 7001 springs

Baker BM "fast road" top mount bushes if these are still available. Don't like Group N top mount bushes as they are a step too far for daily driver/regular use road car IMO.

Standard front ARB

Rebuilt 205 rear beam, lowered to match front

Solid beam mounts (unlike the front top mounts, these are bloody brilliant and don't compromise daily use)

No experience with different ARB/TB and toe/camber settings for the rear, so no idea what I'd choose!

Custom made front top strut brace - top plates welded to strut tops, with a bracket each side, then custom length bar bolted to each plate.

 

Braking
For the front, probably stick with standard calipers and discs with better pads. If I had to upgrade, it would be good quality alloy twin pot/4 pot calipers, with 2 piece discs, but keep to 288mm.

Rear, probably standard disc setup but with pads lockwired in for safety. Drums are better, but psychologically I'd always feel like they were too old fashioned, plus they look crap.

Braided brake hoses

406 MC reservoir and cap

Bulkhead reinforcing plate

 

Exterior/Misc
Non sunny shell fully restored. Paint only taken back as far as necessary to maintain factory galvanising where possible. Painted a non-standard white

<Possibly> some additional welding in a few areas where the spot welds are prone to splitting

All new door/window seals subject to availability. Modification/retro fitment of alternative new seals where new OE parts aren't available.

New headlights

New driving lights, in continental yellow. Repro covers. Repro plastic surrounds (to replace tin)

New indicators, modified to remove amber reflector.

Clear side repeaters, modified to remove amber reflector

New Ph2 tail light units, modified to remove amber reflector

New reverse and fog units

LED brake and indicator bulbs.

Standard wiper blades (Aero blades are soooo 2010 baby! )

306/106 wiper motor

Wiper spindles resurfaced and modified with bushes/bearings, and custom rod linkage arms (similar to gear rods)

Standard Ph2 mirrors retrofitted with electric adjustment and heated glass

Door locks removed

Tailgate lock and petrol cap lock anodised black

Carbon fibre repro tailgate spoiler

New/repro badges

Trim strips re-sprayed deep red and fully polished (unlike standard orange peel effect)

Electric steering pump mounted in place of the spare wheel, in a custom made sound proofed box.

Custom made washer fluid tank (bigger capacity) mounted under the boot floor feeding front and rear screen via separate pumps. Filler cap accessed via a cutout in the boot floor, hidden under carpet.

Pollen filter fitted to intake under scuttle

Repro scuttle cover (designed in such a way that it a} doesn't break everytime you need to remove/refit it and b} doesn't need to have the windscreen seal peeled over the top of it.

Standard jacking points cut out and welded over, with new reinforced jacking plates welded in

[Para 82 2 Cars]

Haha is this a "road spec" for you ? I would love to see "track spec" then

[eob 7]

If you are looking for a shell I know somebody in Dublin selling beautifull Miami shell from 94 never seen such a clean chassis. Sounds like a great plan, lots of work and time but it can turn out to be a great project.

 

To be honest, my own 205 is about 90% the way there on the spec list I provided. If I was going to go balls out as regards a shell, mind you, I'd look for an '84/'85/'86 just purely to take advantage of Ireland's 30+ rolling classic car laws. I had a "Old 205 Shell Wanted" advert running on Gumtree and ebay for quite some time, never found one. There was one '84 car on here but it's since been scrapped as far as I can tell.

 

I do need to spend more time in the garage with her (should've put that on the wish list ) but I'm just curious as to what people generally think is the best build spec. To be honest some of the stuff listed makes for great food for thought.

[MiniGibbo 142]

I think the ultimate road 205 has a TU..

 

Perfect balance of power and handling.

[GLPoomobile 958]

Haha is this a "road spec" for you ? I would love to see "track spec" then

 

Yes, road spec. Look at the spec of some member's track cars and they are ridiculous compared to this! You can go mental if you are focussed just on a track spec.

 

My spec lists some custom parts, but mostly it's fairly tame using easily available bits, and most modifications I'd do would be aimed at providing reliability, quality, comfort and ease of use. Or to put that another way - a GTI That you can jump into on a cold winter morning, have it start on the button, drive away in relative comfort, thrash the arse off it and enjoy it without anything breaking, provide plenty of fun on A and B roads, still be comfortable sitting in traffic, and be able to cruise across Europe. And in actual fact, most GOOD GTIs already provide those traits, so I'm just adjusting the ingredients and bringing it a little in to the 21st century

[welshpug 1,657]

As it happens I'm fairly close to my posted spec already

 

1.9 gti, mild cam.

MP3.1.

Magnex manifold, Longlife Exhaust.

 

309 Wishbones, standard bushes, ZX 16v steering rack, 2.4 turn splined fitting, uses standard 205 splined PAS lower column.

Peugeot Sport standard spring diameter non height adjustable Gravel dampers (inverted inserts)

Peugeot Sport Gravel rear dampers.

21mm torsion bars, 22mm arb.

standard peugeot beam bushes.

 

1.9 brakes all round, 1144 front pads original peugeot rears, standard rubber lines.

 

Michelin PE2's, Speedline Chrono 15x6.5" wheels.

 

Phase 3 306 headunit, Alpine speakers.

 

Exterior, 405 spray bars, driving light protectors, period correct indicators and light clusters.

[Type-R 3]

Great thread, lots of ideas and food for thought.

I'm not sure how much I'd modify - it can so easily go waayy too far

Sometimes I think without all the creaking and flexing they wouldn't be the same cars

Although the gear linkages are a must imo - with standard throw!

Did you ever get something like this built eob?

[jackherer 543]

He hasn't been on here since May 03 2016 07:42 PM

[Type-R 3]

Oh.

Nevermind.

Beware I may still bump this with an epic spec list when I decide to nerd out properly