Swirl Pot Advice

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

Hi there,

 

I need to fit a swirl pot to avoid fuel starvation.

 

I intend to buy a 1.5L tank, in-line pump and all the relevent pipes/fittings.

 

Could someone please answer a few questions:

 

• Are low pressure lift pumps available to fit a standard 205 tank
• If not is it OK to use the standard high pressure pump to feed to swirl pot. I am aware of the damage risk if this pump is starved of fuel every corner.
• What type/rating of after market in-line pump would be suitable for up to say 250bhp (future proofing)
• Edit: Anyone used tank foam/wire balls in a 205 tank and had good experience with them?

Thanks for any help.

 

Henry.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Henry 1.9GTi

[welshpug 1,657]

A healthy std pump is sufficient iirc, sandy mentioned to me the saxo/106 unit is similar as well as long as surge us addressed.

 

Alex Austin at torques can sort you out with pump and lines.

Edited April 30, 2013 by welshpug

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

• Are low pressure lift pumps available to fit a standard 205 tank

Not that I've seen, no, but I wouldn't bother trying to fit one in the tank anyway.

• If not is it OK to use the standard high pressure pump to feed to swirl pot. I am aware of the damage risk if this pump is starved of fuel every corner

I'd say it's not ideal, but people have done it yes, and it works. You will need to ensure the fuel return is in place (like you wouldn't, I know) because it'll probably flow more than is really necessary, filling the swirl pot in no time and needing to bleed off any fuel back to the tank, lest you want to pressurise the swirl pot (which would not be a great thing). Obviously it's an injection pump so it's designed to deliver fuel at high pressure; I'm not sure of the long term effects of running it just filling a swirl pot with no pressure regulator in the way - it might be a good thing, it might be bad.

 

I played safe and fitted an aftermarket pump externally.

 

• What type/rating of after market in-line pump would be suitable for up to say 250bhp (future proofing)

Facet interrupter will do fine; a simple carb pump (not high pressure). Most of the fuel in the swirl pot will be kepy from the return from the fuel rail, so you lift pump from the tank does not need to shift a lot of volume. Just put it as low as you can to the tank - they're ideally meant to be gravity fed, so below the tank, but to be honest they'll draw enough vacuum to pull up from a tank provided you're siting them "right on top" kind of thing. Keep them close to the tank and you'll be fine.

 

• Edit: Anyone used tank foam/wire balls in a 205 tank and had good experience with them?

 

Can't answer - I've not, no.

[eafertynyne 1]

I had the same issues and wasted a lot of time and money trying to resolve it.

 

Foam didn't work.

 

In the end, I binned the standard tank.

 

I've now got a fabricated 30 litre baffled stainless tank incorporating swirl pot and pump and mounted it in the boot. From memory, it cost me around £200 for this whole set up. (I think I wasted nearly £100 on foam alone).

 

I've never suffered fuel surge since.

 

Assuming yours is a track car too, I was dubious initially about locating the tank in the boot, but even when full to the brim I can't tell any difference in how the car behaves.

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

£200 for a new tank eh? that sounds very cheap if it incorporates collectors, pumps, lines etc. Ideally this is what I would do. But at the moment I have no room for it due to battery and fire extinguisher being in the boot. I know these would be easy to re-locate but well, I'm feeling lazy. I think this is something I will do when the season is over.

 

Thanks for info brumster.

 

The pump you talk about, this is just a low pressure lift pump from tank to swirl pot? How does it take the fuel from the tank; just a pipe that sits in the tank?

 

Also I was after recomendations for high pressure pumps to feed the fuel rail from the swirl pot.

 

At the moment, Matt180 is kindly selling me a pot and pump, I will just use the standard peugeot pump to feed the pot (making sure the return is well secured and healthy!) and then use the pump Matt is selling me to feed the fuel rail from the swirl pot.

 

Cheers.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Yep, I just used the standard pump casing, you can remove the pump motor itself and then use the return pipe as the pickup pipe. I think if you take the standard pump out and look at it, you'll see what I mean.

 

High-pressure wise I used a Sytec motorsport pump.

[petert 586]

The standard pump is fine to use as a lift pump. It has the ability to reach a high pressure, but there will be negligible pressure as it's pumping to an open tank. If there is no restriction there will be no pressure.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

There are no issues with it not having something to "push" against, though, Peter? Like I said, I don't know from experience, but if there are people out there who have been using it like so for a long period then I guess it's all good

[petert 586]

Yes, a mate has been running one for 6-7 years at least without any issues. I just run a cut down standard tank.

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

My races use ~25-30L fuel. So I think with a cut down tank I would still suffer starvation as I imagine when its down to the last 5-10L it still moves away from the pump.

 

Thanks for info anyway, will use the intank pump as a lift pump. I actually changed it for a fresh one at great expense but the old one was still working. Just a precaution when changing to a few more ponies! So I do have a spare.

 

The only thing that seems worrying regarding using a high pressure pump to feed the pot is that I imagine the return from the fuel rail goes back to the pot and the return from the pot then goes to the tank. This means there are effectively 2 sources trying to fill the pot. I can't even imagine how this works with pressures etc.. but my point is what happens if this slightly pressurises the return from the fuel rail? Likely to cause problems? Can the single return to tank from pot cope.

[Tom Fenton 1,541]

You would just make the return from swirl pot to tank a larger bore hose to ensure that the swirl pot cannot become pressurised, or otherwise fit 2 returns to the main tank to allow the fuel return from the rail to go back to the main tank.

 

If you have a look about on here somewhere there is the Peugeot Sport group A works build manual which shows you how they originally setup a swirl pot system.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

The loop back from the rail won't "fill" the swirl pot any more than it was full before, because ultimately it's source was the pot itself (minus a few millilitres squirted into the engine, of course), so that's practically a constant loop minus a few. Just ensure the return is good and you'll be fine.

[Powers 13]

Allo good information above but to confirm:

• Are low pressure lift pumps available to fit a standard 205 tank

Not that I've seen, no, but I wouldn't bother trying to fit one in the tank anyway.

 

 

Yes they are available and can be used for carburetor applications without having to use two regulators to lower the pressure.

[welshpug 1,657]

To save moving all your stuff from the boot, you could have a metal tank fabricated to sit in the standard location, the phase1 205 pump casing is good for this, quite a few of sandy and colin's customers use something like this.

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

thanks welshpug. Interesting info.

 

I think something like that would get done in conjunction with a full shell strip down and seam welding activity. I'm not sure if i'll ever get to do this but heres to hoping!

 

For now I will see how I get on with the swirl pot setup.

 

One more question:

 

curretly running a DTA ecu which Sandy kindly made the loom for me. The fuel pump wiring in the car is standard; so I believe this still goes through the brown connectors under the dash.
When wiring up the new high pressure pump would it be ok to simply splice into the existing wiring near the tank? The peugeot pump now only pumping at atmospheric will use alot less current. I know its not ideal but current draw should only be another 3amps or so.

 

Or would wiring up another relay with the switching side taken directly from the existing relay and the power side being fresh wires. Would this work taking the switching side form the existing?

 

Kind regards,

Henry.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Don't know the draw of the standard pump, but my sytec pulses on current draw but averages around the 2 to 3 amps like you say - I know this due to the beauties of a PDM

 

So I don't see an issue with what you're proposing, provided fusing/relays within range of 3A+<standard pump>A