Wider Track 205

[Cathal 0]

I am building a 205 rally car and I want to have a wider track than a standard 205. Iv heard if you use 309 wishbones and shafts that is gives you a wider track. Are the 309 shafts longer than the 205 shafts so? I'm using rose jointed adjustable wishbones and a standard subframe from a 1.6 gti. By using the 309 shafts with the adjustable wishbones, will i be able to gain more width?? Any help would be a massive help!!

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Like I said, nothing massively significant - if you're on rose jointed adjustable wishbones already then you're probably as wide as you can go without looking into different offset hubs or wheel rims. All 309 shafts are doing for you over 205 ones is giving you a bit more safety margin on how much track or camber you can "push out" on the hub without worrying about the CV's running out of travel on full droop. On a rally car, I personally think that's quite important given the abuse they get, but if you're not running to the extremeties of track/camber on your existing setup then 205 shafts will be fine. It's not the shafts that decide the track, obviously, it's where you position the wheel hub carrier - and there are geometry issues with pushing that out a massive amount.

 

Why do you want "wide track"? How wide are we talking - are you building an S2000-style wide arch car or something?

[parry 23 1 Cars]

I have successfully widened the track by using rims with an ET0 and 8 inch, not sure how this would be on a rally car. I am also using BX driveshafts with 306 steering rods but this more for camber rather than track. The wishbones needed to be extended by 30mm to utilize the longer driveshafts.

 

[ORB 227 1 Cars]

That looks rather nice!

[dcc 855]

missing a driveshaft be interesting to see how those wishbones last with some rallying abuse!

[parry 23 1 Cars]

I am worried about the wishbones as well. I rushed and bought the compbrakes wishbones after the last ones colapsed, AB Motorsport wishbones are the way to go.

 

This is what hapenned last time. But they did last 6 years.

 

[ORB 227 1 Cars]

heat and a hammer = sorted

[Cathal 0]

Like I said, nothing massively significant - if you're on rose jointed adjustable wishbones already then you're probably as wide as you can go without looking into different offset hubs or wheel rims. All 309 shafts are doing for you over 205 ones is giving you a bit more safety margin on how much track or camber you can "push out" on the hub without worrying about the CV's running out of travel on full droop. On a rally car, I personally think that's quite important given the abuse they get, but if you're not running to the extremeties of track/camber on your existing setup then 205 shafts will be fine. It's not the shafts that decide the track, obviously, it's where you position the wheel hub carrier - and there are geometry issues with pushing that out a massive amount.

 

Why do you want "wide track"? How wide are we talking - are you building an S2000-style wide arch car or something?

Well i want a slightly wider track as it helps with handling. Not talking s2000 style???? The only thing i would be worried about is the strength of the AB motorsort wishbones, are they strong enough for rallying?

[welshpug 1,655]

Does it though?

 

Best handling 205's i know of are only wider because of the wheels used.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Indeed, this has been discussed on here at length in the past by people with far more knowledge of suspension design than I - but even I appreciated the argument that simple track increase does not necessarily make anything better. Put it like this, I have no desire to go mental on wide track under the belief it'll make the car handle or go round corners any better.

 

AB's lower arms are amongst the best you can get - I have been abusing mine for 11 years including hitting a 2-course brick wall with the front wheel. The brake disc snapped but the arm was tickety-boo

[Biggles 65]

Just a question - what are you doing at the rear ? The reason I ask is that my experience is that having rear track narrow than front is not good for handling so leaving the front alone & widening the rear would give better results (I will add the proviso that I've not widened the rear of a 205 to test the theory - only other small French hatchbacks).

[Cathal 0]

Just a question - what are you doing at the rear ? The reason I ask is that my experience is that having rear track narrow than front is not good for handling so leaving the front alone & widening the rear would give better results (I will add the proviso that I've not widened the rear of a 205 to test the theory - only other small French hatchbacks).

That was gonna be my next question!! I hear that a 309 back axle is wider than the 205 axle? I was thinking of turreting but if that is gonna cost a lot then the funds wont allow me to do so.

[rallyeash 155]

I disagree with that. I prefer my 205 with 309 wider front and thinner 205 1.9 beam with decent size tb's and arb.

[rallyeash 155]

Ps I went 205 beam to 309 and back to 205

[welshpug 1,655]

Turreting in itself is not that expensive especially for the gains you achieve, means you dont have to spend lots on torsion bars or dampers because a simpler more cost effective standard unit can be utilised rather than a rick 3 way.

 

 

 

Just
a question - what are you doing at the rear ? The reason I ask is that
my experience is that having rear track narrow than front is not good
for handling so leaving the front alone & widening the rear would
give better results

 

I don't know where you read that but I'm afraid you are off the mark, any FWD car that handles will be narrower at the rear, I'd go as far as saying I doubt you'll find a FWD car that is wider at the rear.

 

106/saxo for example is the same track as a 205 up front but 40mm narrower than a 205 at the rear, you don't see them going wider at the back do you?

 

the opposite is true of RWD cars, they are typically wider at the rear, its a similar relationship with ARB's, FWD you increase rear roll, RWD, increase front, retain compliance for the driven wheels.

Edited February 12, 2013 by welshpug

[Biggles 65]

Didn't read it anywhere - came to that conclusion after years running & developing a small fwd car. I also didn't say rear wider than front - just have them the same. I've found it works extremely well (generally a lot of work though which might be why you don't see it too often).

 

BTW, you're wrong about not finding a fwd car that's wider at the rear. Check out the Skoda Roomster - 3" wider rear track than the front.

[rallyeash 155]

Not exactly built for handling! Just a cheap fwd car then they wanted a bigger boot/wider back seats so made the rear wider as an afterthought

[Batfink 201]

Didn't read it anywhere - came to that conclusion after years running & developing a small fwd car. I also didn't say rear wider than front - just have them the same. I've found it works extremely well (generally a lot of work though which might be why you don't see it too often).

 

BTW, you're wrong about not finding a fwd car that's wider at the rear. Check out the Skoda Roomster - 3" wider rear track than the front.

If you like a very stable and safe car this I'd the way to go. For good handling and turn in its a small track rear / wide front.

[Biggles 65]

Not exactly built for handling! Just a cheap fwd car then they wanted a bigger boot/wider back seats so made the rear wider as an afterthought

 

No, actually it was designed like that. Handles a lot better than a lot of cars I've driven too. Cited as an example to Welshpug that you can get fwd wider at the rear than the front rather than a recommendation for a track / competition car (although it would raise an eyebrow or two I suspect).

[rallyeash 155]

Still a s*it box!

[Biggles 65]

For good handling and turn in its a small track rear / wide front.

There's where we will agree to differ as my current tarmac rally Samba (same track both ends) handles like an absolute dream.

[welshpug 1,655]

D -

 

BTW, you're wrong about not finding a fwd car that's wider at the rear. Check out the Skoda Roomster - 3" wider rear track than the front.

 

not exactly the epitome of fwd sports hatch is it?

[Biggles 65]

No, but you didn't specify a sports hatch, you just said you doubted you'd find a fwd car that was wider at the back ...

Edited February 12, 2013 by Biggles

[welshpug 1,655]

good point, its not a car

[EdCherry 34 1 Cars]

Everyone knows real racing cars have huge front track compared to the rear...