Are 205 Gti Enthusiasts All Misers

[GLPoomobile 958]

I shall start off by saying, if any of you should take any of my comments or examples within this post as a personal attack, please be assured that it is not intended that way. But if you are personally offended, then ....I dunno....write to your local MP or something, cos I couldn't care less

 

This is by no means a new phenomena, but it is one that I have recently started to become more enraged by. There's really 3 parts to this:

1 - Members who complain about the price of 2nd hand and new parts

2 - Members who complain that custom, or, small volume reproduction parts are too expensive

3 - Members who f*** up attempts to kick off Group Buys, by wanting variations of the product (actually not directly related to the topic title, or the 2 points above, but thought I'd throw it in anyway since I recently had a rant about this in the Red Carpet topic)

 

We all have a different perception of value, and we all have different financial situations, so that's fair enough. I myself have previously frittered my own money away, and now have to seriously consider before I make any more rash purchases. I've bought plenty of bits for my 205 over the years that I've never even used - they are always for that idea, or the project, that just never happens. The reason I mention this is, I don't want the message in this topic to come across like I'm expecting people to dig deep and just throw their money about without consideration. The point of this topic is to ask the question "what the hell goes through some people's minds?" And to hopefully make some of you have another think about your own perception of value for money.

 

There's been a recent flurry of people slagging off eBay listings (think mudflaps for example) and accusing sellers of taking the piss, and buyers for being mental. I personally woulnd't bid £200 odd quid on a set of mudflaps either - aye, it is a bit mental - but if that's what other's are genuinely bidding, and that's what the sellers are making, then I say "fair play" to them! What's the problem?

 

Example - someone criticising a listing for a brand new (albeit pattern part) ribbed tailgate panel with all new Peugeot fixings for £75. I just don't see what is so bad about that. Sure, they aren't hard to come by 2nd hand, but they're nearly always cracked at the sides. In this example, the gripe seems to be that the seller has marked up the price, becuase as a pattern part, it can be bought cheaper. OK, so let's examine that point:

1 - If it's widely available from pattern suppliers, then any clued up buyers will go that route, and the eBay trader will find it harder to sell

2 - If it's not easily available from pattern suppliers, and a potential buyer wants a brand new part ASAP, then they could buy it from the ebay trader, and I'm sure both parties would be happy with the trade.

3 - So what if the eBay trader has marked up the price? That's part of running a business, being able to make a profit. Duh! Doesn't mean you or anyone else HAS to buy from them and pay the inflated price.

 

Example - member on here trying to sell a mint condition gear knob for ~£45. I'm glad to say that this particular example didn't get the negative response I would have expected, but still some questioned the price. My argument for this (why I believe that it was worth every penny of £45), is that you only have to look at aftermarket gear knobs and they aren't bloody cheap anymore! And if you look at the price of some brand new knobs for newer cars, through the dealer networks, then again £45 is good value. In both those cases though, I'm talking about items that are freely available - if you need/want a replacement gear knob ASAP, you can get one, and you pay the price. But in the case of the 205 GTI, how easily can you pick up a new old stock, or mint condition gearknob? Not very bloody easy, is it? So why do some people expect that they should be able to get one on the cheap? And piss and moan if people try to sell them for decent money.

 

Example - good old Tom Fenton going to all that effort with his stainless steel airbox brackets. But apparently the (very reasonable IMO) price was too much for some people! Jesus wept! Tom buys up the steel, gets it laser cut, folds it himself, welds it up, has the admin to deal with (answering PMs, taking payment etc) and sends them out, all of which I'm sure he does in his free time as he's not doing this as a business venture........but no, some people still want it at cost price. f***ing unbelievable!

 

Example - again, I believe it was Tom who was doing the bumper bracket supports. Nice custom made part, usual Fenton quailty, being offered for what was almost pocket change. Again, some people thought it was too expensive.

 

Example - an old topic, recently revived, about replacement carpets. I said that it was unlikely that anyone would try and get them reproduced at any time soon, as there wouldn't be much demand and would take a lot of money to put in to production. I was surprised to hear them that the French club had already done this, and they had sold them (I don't know when this was, could have been years ago) for 250 euros a pop. Again, apparently too expensive for some though. £200 for a brand new reproduction carpet, too expensive?

 

 

In summary, it seems that some people want the f***ing moon on a stick. Sure, some people do take this piss with high prices, and of course we all know that some eBay sellers get by, by claiming that easily available items are rare. That's been going on for years. But what it ultimately comes down to is this - if you want something fancy for your cherished 205, put your bloody hand in your pocket and stop moaning about it. The world doesn't owe you anything! If you are too tight - or like a lot of us, simply struggling for cash and have to count every penny - then shut the f*** up and accept that you can't afford the item and either have to make do without it, or compromise.

 

You shold all be bloody grateful that we've got some top quality members on this forum who are going to a lot of effort to to get custom made parts put in to production, and group buys negotiated on other things. These are the people we need - and more of them - to keep the flow of parts coming in years to come, to keep 205 GTIs on the road, looking mint, and going well. They need our support, NOT our criticism.

[GLPoomobile 958]

I should also add, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with haggling on price. I realise that by using the gear knob example, some of you who've seen that topic may think that I'm confusing haggling with complaining about a price. I'm not

[Baz 421]

Baz likes this post. Few good points raised, it was always going to go this way wasn't it, don't buy a 25 yr old car and expect to restore or even run it on a shoestring budget.

 

I will also add; This forum has always been full of tightwads which is fine, it's just our 'way' - but unfortunately now there seems to be lots of messers/small mindedness/illiterate misreading/interpreting morons too. I know I'm certainly not alone in seeing this & it's a shame and isn't doing us any favours whatsoever.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Baz

[McDude 33]

What a very well written and well thought out rant GLP.

 

I guess 205s will keep on moving away from 'parts cheap from the scrappy' to 'rare or custom made reproduction parts'. The transition may be too much for some to bear, but like you said GLP, just because you can't afford it, doesn't mean it's not worth it.

[m_attt 31 1 Cars]

I posted about the panel, Its not because Im tight or cant afford it. I spend for new parts on my cars as it needs it. I dont have any debts and a chunk of money in the bank.

 

It was purely because of the massive amount stuck on top, you can get genuine from the dealer for less with all clips. I just dont agree with vastly over inflating profits because its a "classic". If they are "nuts" about 205's surely they would be offering reasonable prices to keep the cars on the road and tidy and appeal to the enthusiast be being fair and sensibly priced to build up a decent customer base of the people who will ultimately buy the stuff.

[Kezzer30 40 1 Cars]

Good post some good points , im very new to the 205 and have not ha much to say on prices tbh some things i new before i got the car wouldnt be cheap due to the age of the car , and if i feel that a price is too high then i just dont bid , i have to agree some prices seem silly high at times but i wouldnt be that upset i had to post it up , think ive seen some mi-16 and gti rear badges at £40 which i thinks quite high but i just dont bid

 

I also feel sometimes items can be worth more to certain people so thats why people price them up higher at times as mentioned earlier , if your desperate for something u may be willing to pay more to get it when needed , people will know this and may be in no rush to sell etc.

 

So i gunna put myself in the middle and say i see both points of each agrument .

Edited January 4, 2013 by Kezzer30

[Batfink 201]

quite frankly if a customer uses ebay as their main source of new parts without shopping around then they are asking to get ripped off.

[GLPoomobile 958]

I posted about the panel, Its not because Im tight or cant afford it. I spend for new parts on my cars as it needs it. I dont have any debts and a chunk of money in the bank.

 

It was purely because of the massive amount stuck on top, you can get genuine from the dealer for less with all clips. I just dont agree with vastly over inflating profits because its a "classic". If they are "nuts" about 205's surely they would be offering reasonable prices to keep the cars on the road and tidy and appeal to the enthusiast be being fair and sensibly priced to build up a decent customer base of the people who will ultimately buy the stuff.

 

Matt

 

I agree that in certain circumstances there are unscrupulous sellers who will resell items at a considerable markup. This isn't limited to eBay. I don't like this any more than the next man, but it's a free market. Nobody is forcing anyone to pay a price they don't want. Of course, this could influence prices on the whole, but hey, supply and demand and all that stuff As a buyer, we all prefer cheaper prices, but if higher prices means that certain businesses are able to make the profit they need to stay afloat, and therefore keep the products coming, then again I have to say "fair play".

 

Sticking with your eBay example, I have to ask two questions:

1 - You mentioned that the panel can be had for £17 from Hadrians. Is that a current price? What's the availability like?

2 - Have you looked at the cost of the panel fixings from Pug? Are they even available still? Pug prices for genuine fixings like these are extortionate, and often have to be bought in multiple quantities that you don't need. Obviously I wouldn't expect it to be £50 worth of fixings, but this needs to be taken in to account when judging how much profit this seller is trying to make

 

Also, don't forget the ridiculous costs that eBay sellers suffer, all of which drives up the price.

 

Also, whilst admitedly I'm not in the market for one of these panels it has never once crossed my mind over the years that you could buy repro versions of them, and I also assume that they are NFP from Pug and nigh on impossible to get genuine new ones. I also wouldn;t have assumed that Hadrians would do them, since the only thing I know about them is that they do repro body panels. Therefore, the fact that they can be bought for £17, and 'public' knowledge that they can be bought for that price and that Hadrians is one such supplier are two different things.

 

I'm not defending those who are out to rip off the gullible, I'm just saying that people need to think before they jump to the conclusion that sellers are taking the piss.

[cRaig 273 1 Cars]

As mentioned, a well put rant GLP

Firstly, with regard to the group buy situtation, it is certainly hard work- and when I started out with the driving light protectors I was completely paranoid that they would be shot down (on this forum in particular) for them being too expensive! However, the tide does seem to be turning, and interest remains high, but we are still some way off the French club and their attitudes- they are currently reproducing OE spec gearknobs, in all styles, BE1, BE3, red, green etc etc, GTI boot badges, all kind of bits that are increasingly rare and expensive second hand. Their prices are high, but from my dodgy google translations people just seem pleased that the bits are available, and at a really good quality.

 

I guess 205 ownership is going through a difficult balance between people who own then as cheap and cheerful cars to potter with, and put a smile on their face, and collectors/investors/ "classic car owners" who increasingly see them as investments/genuine classics to be restored/preserved etc.

I guess this isnt a unique situation, all classics, such as MK1/2 Escorts have been through the same process, and that was partly why I went to town on my 205.. while I could still (relatively!) find and afford the parts required to do it, as I was increasingly worried that the parts supply would dry up, and indeed, several people have contacted me struggling to find things like a quarter panel, when I simply went to Peugeot and bought one (presumably one of the last, and that was only a few years ago)

 

Thats not to say we are in a dire position, there are lots of new parts, bits still being made and cars being broken that things will be fine for a long time. But given the relatively small number of 205s, compared to say MGs etc, we are unlikely to ever see a large resurgance of commercial reproduction parts, thats why I think forum and club group buys are so important, and like you say.. its annoying when people take them off the tracks/moan about the costs! Especially condering how much effort low volume/bespoke production of stuff like the airbox brackets is, and how little profit there is in doing them!

Edited January 4, 2013 by cRaig

[m_attt 31 1 Cars]

I get your point its a business etc, but surely the best idea is aim to please your target market. I bet there's a fair chunk of potential customers on this site who pass up all the stuff due to the price. Times are hard for a business so decent prices and loyal customers is a good thing, but its not my business and they can run it how they like etc as its going off topic.

 

Yes the part is available from pug at £60, and all the fixings bar a small foam washer. But can be sourced.

 

And yes it available from hadrians i just baught one, and fitted it with new fixings only yesterday I didnt go genuine as it was xmas and i'd rather spend the money on my family, if my car was concourse i prob would have gone with pug.

 

 

agree with your other points though, Ive looked into small run production before, its not cheap. and with the group buys alot of effot must go in so take whats been offered

Edited January 4, 2013 by m_attt

[Carbs4me 45]

I payed £50 or something around there for a gear knob just before Christmas

 

You think where bad... wait to you see what the landrover guys are like... my uncle and grandad been them "me - whats this roof doing its in the way can i move it" "uncle - no its expensive that i don't want you to damage it" "Me - ok so sell it its hordes 1/8 of the garage" "uncle - I cant sell it no body wants them anymore" "me - So its not worth anything then" "Uncle - no Anthony there worth alot of money!"

[Cameron 16]

Ooo.. also, just noticed the gear knob thread, turns out I missed something!

 

I'm with you on the "205 owners are misers" argument, in fact every time I see the word "best" used in a thread title I vow not to read or post in it for my own sanity as more often than not the best solution isn't what they're interested in at all! That said, I'm also against piss-taking prices for parts that are easily found with a quick trip to a scrap yard (i.e. come from any vehicle including base models) for a few quid by people advertising them as either a special or rare component, essiential for xxx.

 

100% agree with the argument against jokers wanting things at cost price as well, they clearly have no regard for time spent on design / development, or even making the bloody things!

[Baz 421]

That said, I'm also against piss-taking prices for parts that are easily found with a quick trip to a scrap yard (i.e. come from any vehicle including base models) for a few quid by people advertising them as either a special or rare component, essiential for xxx.

 

100% agree with the argument against jokers wanting things at cost price as well, they clearly have no regard for time spent...

 

You've just contradicted yourself right there again though, i've pointed it out to you before, not everyone is at liberty or wants to 'simply' go to a scrapyard and scarabble about to get an item and even if they were, how would they necessarily guarantee the item to be in good fare?!

 

[Cameron 16]

Ha.. I know what you mean, but spending a few minutes removing a small bolt-on part (for argument's sake let's say a headlamp adjuster bracket) from a shell you're breaking doesn't necessitate a £30 increase in asking price, whereas spending a couple of hours fabricating a part definitely does! I'm not saying breakers shouldn't get anything to cover the time they spent removing parts, but there's covering your costs and there's taking the piss.

[tartanbloke 35 1 Cars]

Afternoon,

 

I agree with the points made by GLP and will add a few words based on my thoughts.

 

In short, from this day forward the price of parts will increase as the availability of decent or new (old stock) items reduces. The fact remains that the scrappage scheme in addition to there only being around 5500 205 gti models left in the UK (how many left) clearly spells the end of cheap parts.

 

It has come to that point where the cost of ownership will increase and those that are wanting these as cheap runarounds will no longer be able to afford to do so. In addition, it will eventually get to the point that the only way to obtain parts is as a group buy, which I am more than happy to contribute towards regardless of cost as you need passionate and willing owners to keep these vehicles on the road. If it was not for those dedicated owners and clubs, how many E-Types, Masarati's and XK120's do you think would still be on the road.

 

The comment I made in the past is more relevant now in that this is the responsibility and costs associated with maintaining and owning a wonderful drivers car. If you think prices are starting to climb now, just wait to see what it is in five years time when all vehicles that can be salvaged for spares are gone.

 

With regards to the French club, I am sure we will get there in the end with all the passion being shown by those dedicated people going above and beyond. Praise needs to be given to these people and again, I will say thanks.

 

Thats my rant.

 

Chris

[GLPoomobile 958]

I get your point its a business etc, but surely the best idea is aim to please your target market. I bet there's a fair chunk of potential customers on this site who pass up all the stuff due to the price. Times are hard for a business so decent prices and loyal customers is a good thing, but its not my business and they can run it how they like etc as its going off topic.

 

It's not going off topic Matt, it's still relevant I agree with you entirely, that the key to running a good business is to offer your customers what they want, for a good price, and provide good service. I know nothing about 205nuts, so can't coment any further.

 

 

Yes the part is available from pug at £60, and all the fixings bar a small foam washer. But can be sourced.

 

So Pug will do you the panel for £60. Presumably with the fittings costng extra. 205nuts are listing the repro panel plus fixings at £75. Since you've just bought one of these repro panles for £17, I presume you are quite happy with the quality. If that's the case, what's so wrong with 205nuts selling their package for close to (possibly less if you factor in the fittings) than the Pug part, unless there is a significant and noticeable difference in quality?

 

So the only gripe is that these fellas are marking up a cheaper product to Pug prices to make a profit? As I said before, I really don't see what the big deal is with doing that. It's not mega bucks, and knowing what a complete arse it can be dealing with Pug parts desks, and having to make 2 journeys to order then collect the parts (for those about to chip in with the usual s*ite about your 'special' relationship with the local parts desks, shut the f*** up, cos you don't represent the majority ), I can see why the appeal of clicking buy it now and having the item delivered to your door would appeal to some people. Plus, we don't know how much it costs 205nuts to source their parts. For all we know, they could be missing out big time by going to another supplier (not Hadrians) and paying more than £17!

 

I've actually just hopped over to the 205nuts listings on eBay as I type this. You are right, some of their stuff is a bit on the pricy side

Maybe you should buy up a bunch of panels from Hadrians and the fittings from Pug and punt them on eBay, undercutting 205nuts by 10% If you want to combat high prices, nothing like a bit of healthy competition to get the job done.

Edited January 4, 2013 by GLPoomobile

[Batfink 201]

Being able to buy a car cheap seems to give the owner an expectation that all parts, whether standard or modified should be cheap as well. Its a gross misconception. Its why you end up with so many 205's and other peugeots with s*it modifications.

[Redtop 14 2 Cars]

Being able to buy a car cheap seems to give the owner an expectation that all parts, whether standard or modified should be cheap as well. Its a gross misconception. Its why you end up with so many 205's and other peugeots with s*it modifications.

 

Nail on the head! Since I'm dealing with parts for vehicles on and off through my own business I see it every day. For example a 10 year old Toyota amazon landcruiser bottom arm is around £450 iirc and people give off. The problem is that yes the jeep is worth £15k now, but it was a £50k jeep when new and the parts don't change as they get older. Yes you can buy cheaper Chinese copies but it will maybe last 6months due to it being made of cheese.

 

I've been involved in various restorations over the last few years and take for example a brand new set of genuine P2 lotus sunbeam mirrors that we needed was £180! When you can't get them and you need them, you have to buy them. If someone was smart enough to have them stashed away and wants to sell them, then I say good luck to them.

 

Another thing people don't seem to realise, is that everything has got more expensive now and some are living on prices 10 years ago. Mei mentioned a good point on people's wages V new car in the recent 208 gti thread.

 

The 205 isn't a proper collector car yet, as there is still a fair few around and they are relatively cheap compared to other more classic cars e.g the escort, but doesn't have the likes of "Burton Power" reproducing parts to keep costs down of custom parts.

[bondyshambles 23 1 Cars]

I am that man that spent £20.02 on a genuine passenger side weather strip from Peugeot....I am also that man that spent £85 on a genuine drivers side weather strip...from this forum. Personally did i mind paying over 4 times the price for the same part....Yes it hurt a bit but when you go to your local Peugeot dealer and they say "Sorry mate NFP. We cannot get them"...and then somebody on the forum can get them, it becomes your choice. Some are tight , some are not......I need to stay off the Stella...Have i made a point ?

[farmer 328 1 Cars]

iam going wade in and have my say yes i charged 90 each for the window scrapers but it was a part the froum would never get this is how i break doen the price

 

45 euros for the scraper plus shipping from the netherlands to belgium whic was about 10 euros

pay the dealer 10-15 euros for his time in Belgium to collect part

pay another 10-15 euros to get parts shipped to Scotland

my time to order the parts e mails telephone calls ( p.s) i own my own farm

then 10 pounds shipping so in total that comes to 65 quid odd so i made 15 quid a scraper not a lot for the hassle involved

 

Also the clips for the rear board are no longer supplied comes in pack of 20s the foam washer come in packs of 20 and the board lug clips come in 50s

 

This annoys me when people complain about price yes i dont mind helping but the costs involved getting some of these parts are high people need accept that is the way and its a part there nice shiny 205 was ever going to see

Edited January 5, 2013 by farmer

[eddie bullit 37]

iam going wade in and have my say yes i charged 90 each for the window scrapers but it was a part the froum would never get this is how i break doen the price

 

45 euros for the scraper plus shipping from the netherlands to belgium whic was about 10 euros

pay the dealer 10-15 euros for his time in Belgium to collect part

pay another 10-15 euros to get parts shipped to Scotland

my time to order the parts e mails telephone calls ( p.s) i own my own farm

then 10 pounds shipping so in total that comes to 65 quid odd so i made 15 quid a scraper not a lot for the hassle involved

 

Also the clips for the rear board are no longer supplied comes in pack of 20s the foam washer come in packs of 20 and the board lug clips come in 50s

 

This annoys me when people complain about price yes i dont mind helping but the costs involved getting some of these parts are high people need accept that is the way and its a part there nice shiny 205 was ever going to see

Any drivers side weather seals left farmer? I could do with one

[allye 530 3 Cars]

I was about to ask what is a 'miser', then I googled it and came up with this,

 

'cheapskate, snipe-snout, penny pincher, piker, scrooge, skinflint, money grubber, tightarse or tightwad'

 

In short, no we are not.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

That's a good OP, GLP

 

For people fabricating stuff, you're bang on the money (no pun intended). In many cases I look into the cost of some of these items and you soon realise who's taking the piss and who isn't. Group A bottom arms are a classic example; knowing Andy Baker quite well, he tells me how much it costs to make up a pair to the level of quality he's happy to put on competition vehicles (and I have no reason to believe he'd be lying to me) and what he makes on them, I personally wouldn't even bother going to the effort if it was my business. Then you get people carping on about making alternatives for £100 a pop. One thing 38 years has taught me is "you get what you pay for" (provided you're not a mug!).

 

My custom dashboard - I know how much that cost to make, and how much time it takes to make it, and fancied a sideline of making them and making a few quid to put towards upgrades for my car - but in reality, who would pay £300 for one? I doubt very few of the penny pinchers out there

 

But, and here's the rub, there are definately people taking the piss out there. "Front hubs, 1.9, excellent, no ovalling!" - and bollocks, I've yet to have a pair of 2nd hand hubs that aren't ovalled to buggery - with the exception of a pair from Anthony . My point being, they're worth their weight in scrap, and that's about it.

 

I'm of the frame of mind that I'll make most stuff myself if I can, simply to stop buying from these jokers. The only way you're going to push prices down in this day and market is to kick the sellers where it hurts, and STOP buying from them. A prime example was this that I made for another car recently :-

 

 

<£1's worth of bits for something that would have cost me £30 from elsewhere. Ok, maybe not productionised to the same level, but it does the job!

 

Times are tight and people will (and should) spend their hard-earned more wisely. It's a balancing act though, isn't it, you've got to know or appreciate the value of something.... some things are expensive to fabricate/source but don't look it. Other things are just in high demand. As has been said above, if it's the latter and you don't like it, don't buy it - it's the only way you'll drive the price down (bar a little bit of haggling maybe).

Edited January 5, 2013 by brumster

[Cameron 16]

I looked into the cost of making lower arms a couple of months ago, and by the time I'd added any reasonable amount for my time & effort they came out very close to what's currently on the market - hence they're that price for a reason! You can get sets out there that are cheaper, but as with everything you get what you pay for! Cheap arms will use cheap bearings, which will wear out far quicker than any decent ones, so it's false economy really. To use decent rod ends means they cost more than half the end price, so there's really no space to cut cost unless you count your time & effort as worthless.

[welshpug 1,657]

I think the "enthusiasts" is too all-encompassing, you only have to look at the money spent on top end race and rally and hillclimb 205's to see that, yes there's a lot of tired bodged examples out there too, its the nature of a cheap hot hatch.

 

I dread to think what AB's 8v stage rally car would have cost had he not been the owner of a rally prep company, or Colin Satchell's New hillclimber, without his skills and contacts.

 

Well I can, sort of, I know its very scary numbers to most on here who would probably turn their nose up at a 2k 1.6!