How Do I Tell If The Axle On My Pug Is Off 309

[coulpug 0]

i have a 1.6 gti that had its axle changed to a disc setup how can i tell if its off a 309 (as i've heard those are the best for stability) or of a 1.9 gti 205?

and what is the overall difference between the two?

 

i will be changing the hubs and the neccersary's to convert to gti6 setup and just wondered if i should change it if it isn't a 309 beam.

 

any feedback appreciated thanks.

[dcc 855]

Hi Coulpug

 

Welcome to the forum

 

The 309 axle is much wider than a 1.9/1.6 axle.

 

The forum has a very good search function, and whats your asking is already covered in great depth, also the pro's and con's will be found easily enough with a search too

 

From memory the 309 axle is roughly 20mm wider on the rear track, this means each wheel sits 10mm (roughly) further away from each other than a 205 beam.

 

Some people prefer the 205 beam and some prefer the 309.

 

If there is nothing wrong with yours, and you're happy - then leave it be

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Post a pic up of the rear wheel against the arch, that's a majorgive away and should be able to tell you from that

[coulpug 0]

thanks dcc i'll have a good search through the forums to find the info on the beams.

i think i'll stick with it do all the other changes see how it handles then contemplate the 309 axle if not happy with it.

 

paul_13 the wheels do sit nicley inside the arch as it was slammed to the ground which personally i don't like :-[ so that will be raised back up. so on that basis i presume its a 205 axle i would post a pic but i'm allready stripping it to change to gti6.

 

thanks for the feedback

[Batfink 201]

If its tucked up with limited gap between the tyre outer edge and bodywork (ie looking bloody awesome) then its a 309 beam.

[Anthony 1,002]

309 GTi beam has red 20mm torsion bars, and a 205 GTi beam has 19mm rusty torsion bars.

 

The front and rear beam mounts are offset differently between the two - if the beam is offset wider than the holes in the shell then its 309, whereas if it's offset narrower than the holes in the shell then it's 205.

 

Assuming you're running standard wheels, the outside edge of the tyre will be flush with the inside edge of the wheelarch trim on a 309 beam, whereas it'll be sat inwards about an inch on a 205 beam.

[richystran 7 3 Cars]

My 205 has a 309 beam, if you look in the arch with the wheel off the end of the axle will stick out about an inch from the edge of the inner arch, when a standard one will not. If you have a standard 205 sitting beside one with a 309 axle its very noticeable. Heres a pic of mine to compare to

 

[richystran 7 3 Cars]

And standard mudflaps like above will not cover the wheel at all lol

[vtifan 26]

309 GTi beam has red 20mm torsion bars, and a 205 GTi beam has 19mm rusty torsion bars.

 

The front and rear beam mounts are offset differently between the two - if the beam is offset wider than the holes in the shell then its 309, whereas if it's offset narrower than the holes in the shell then it's 205.

 

Assuming you're running standard wheels, the outside edge of the tyre will be flush with the inside edge of the wheelarch trim on a 309 beam, whereas it'll be sat inwards about an inch on a 205 beam.

my rear beam has kind of red tb's, were 205 tbs not red to start with ? hope mine isnt a 309 beam as i will have no chance of getting my wheels on if it is

what do you mean by the mount offset ?

[chipstick 382 1 Cars]

what do you mean by the mount offset ?

 

When fitting mounts on to a 309 beam they are fitted the other way around so that they fit the chassis.

 

Not the best picture in the world, but you can sort of see. When fitting to a 309 beam you fit them 180 degrees to how they are on a 205 beam.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

When fitting mounts on to a 309 beam they are fitted the other way around so that they fit the chassis.

 

Not the best picture in the world, but you can sort of see. When fitting to a 309 beam you fit them 180 degrees to how they are on a 205 beam.

Not the front mounts!

 

Its the rear sandwich blocks that need turning through 180' from the standard 309 fitment to march the holes in the 205 boot floor, the fronts fit already.

 

g

[Anthony 1,002]

Well, the fronts are also turned 180 degrees compared to a 205 beam - but yes, the rears are easier to see

 

Some early 205 GTi beams I believe had red torsion bars, and certainly the PTS bars were a red oxide type colour, but the vast majority of 205 torsion bars were unfinished and hence after 20+ years are a rusty brown colour.

 

A tape measure on the width of the beam tube is the most conclusive way to tell if you're still not sure - I don't have the measurements to hand, but if you do a search you'll find them as it's a question that's been asked a fair few times before.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

I never had to turn the front mounts on my 309 beam to fit either of the 205's I've had it on.

 

g

[chipstick 382 1 Cars]

Now I'm lost

 

Or am I.

 

Personally I was going to use some 205 front mounts I had as they are good condition and the ones already on the 309 beam are worn. So I will still need to change them around, wheras if I left the beam as is and fitted it with the 309 mounts I could leave as is?

Edited November 29, 2012 by chipstick

[Anthony 1,002]

I don't have a good picture to hand, but this shows the offset front mounts:

 

 

That's a 309 beam. Note it's offset inwards. On a 205 beam, it's offset outwards, meaning that the studs are the same distance apart.

 

You wouldn't need to touch them fitting a 309 beam to a 205 as they're already in the correct position, but you need to be aware that they're turned if you remove them to fit say Group A mounts.

 

If you think about it, with the tube being wider, the mounts *must* be offset otherwise the studs wouldn't line up with the holes in the shell.

[welshpug 1,655]

yup, can confirm that was a very dead 309 beam

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

You wouldn't need to touch them fitting a 309 beam to a 205 as they're already in the correct position, but you need to be aware that they're turned if you remove them to fit say Group A mounts.

So I wasn't wrong intiially, while they are turned 180' as standard when comparing a 205 & 309 beam, you don't need anything doing to them to fit the 309 beam to a 205, only the rear mounts have to be rotated 180' to fit the boot floor holes on the sandwich mounts.

 

g

[welshpug 1,655]

here's a 205 front mounting on a 205.

 

Edited November 29, 2012 by welshpug

[coulpug 0]

thank s for all the feed back.

 

the pic you posted richystran tells me its not a 309 beam thanks for that.

 

batfink it does sit in the arch with a bit of clearence the chap i had it off was a 'boyracer' and lowered it to the ground it was rubbing on the fuel tank pipe comin from the filler cap dangerous just shows he was a bout how low he can go not about handling thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

great info everybody thanks for all your input it definatley is a 205 beam you have all helped me indentify it :-D

[vtifan 26]

When fitting mounts on to a 309 beam they are fitted the other way around so that they fit the chassis.

 

Not the best picture in the world, but you can sort of see. When fitting to a 309 beam you fit them 180 degrees to how they are on a 205 beam.

ah right so the bolts are offset and if they are pointing in they are 205 and out 309,s*it no infact that would be the other way round as you would need to narrow the width for the 309 beam,correct ?

[welshpug 1,655]

sounds like the bumpstop is missing if it rubbed on the filler pipe.

[vtifan 26]

Well, the fronts are also turned 180 degrees compared to a 205 beam - but yes, the rears are easier to see

 

Some early 205 GTi beams I believe had red torsion bars, and certainly the PTS bars were a red oxide type colour, but the vast majority of 205 torsion bars were unfinished and hence after 20+ years are a rusty brown colour.

 

A tape measure on the width of the beam tube is the most conclusive way to tell if you're still not sure - I don't have the measurements to hand, but if you do a search you'll find them as it's a question that's been asked a fair few times before.

tell me more,my torsion bars are a kind of red lead/oxide matty colour and look newer than the beam,whats the difference,is it diameter ? car was quite well specced but very very rough in the body and rot underneath,and cracked block gti6 when i got it

had coilovers and gti6 brakes and the extended hub studs so has had cash spent on it at some point

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

tell me more,my torsion bars are a kind of red lead/oxide matty colour and look newer than the beam,whats the difference,is it diameter ?

Read all of this topic's posts & your answers are already there.

 

g

[vtifan 26]

Read all of this topic's posts & your answers are already there.

 

g

so if i have a 205 beam and the tb's are oxide red they might be pts tb's but i would still have to measure them to be sure,even after reading all the posts again to be sure :D

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

309 GTi beam has red 20mm torsion bars, and a 205 GTi beam has 19mm rusty torsion bars.

Yes, if you have a 205 beam with red oxide bars, measure them as they could be PTS or someone elses thicker bars, both PTS sets I have are red oxide.

 

g