Big Valves And Solid Lifters

[cammmy 1]

Hi Guys

 

I'm looking to start accruing parts for the rebuild of my busted engine. As the valves are trashed I figured I would take the opportunity to put bigger ones in

 

Peter, you have mentioned Kawasaki valves and lifters (If I have the lifter bores enlarged). Could you please let me know the part numbers that I need and any important information I need to know? I am very keen to use these but not sure of which parts I need to look at.

 

Ta

Cam

[petert1345402284 0]

Hi Guys

 

I'm looking to start accruing parts for the rebuild of my busted engine. As the valves are trashed I figured I would take the opportunity to put bigger ones in

 

Peter, you have mentioned Kawasaki valves and lifters (If I have the lifter bores enlarged). Could you please let me know the part numbers that I need and any important information I need to know? I am very keen to use these but not sure of which parts I need to look at.

 

Ta

Cam

 

Not Kawasaki valves. The valves come from Competition Valves Australia in Melbourne. I'll send you some updated specs. if you decide to go ahead. The other parts come from APE Raceparts. Don't forget you'll need two sets of each.

 

titanium retainers - TVSRK1000

valve keepers/locks - 21-604

valve springs - VSP520

spring bases - you need to either make these yourself, or ask someone like me to make them for you.

shims - available off the shelf locally in NSW

buckets - Arrow http://www.arrowprecision.co.uk/details.php?id=66691

 

 

You'll need to get the head machined in the spring base areas to accept the new spring bases. Find the best head place you can. They need to have a CNC seat cutting machine to do the bucket bores and cut the seats properly. I'll send you a DXF file for the seats/throat profile.

 

More info here:

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=126039

Edited February 17, 2011 by petert

[cammmy 1]

Here's typical retail pricing...

 

AUS$6314

 

Holy crap! That is definitely more than I thought it was going to be!

 

Is there a less expensive way of doing this? I'm only looking at road use and figured bigger valves and solid lifters would be good to look at as the ones in the motor need replacing anyway. Was looking at 8,000rpm max and not for prolonged periods, just the odd hoon down a back road.

[petert1345402284 0]

The cheap method is to rebuild the standard lifter, depending on how much you can do yourself. Throw away the piston assembly and replace with a solid silver steel centre, which has been drilled out to reduce mass. The length of the centre is altered to adjust clearance.

 

Use Catcam PAC-S10011 springs and standard retainers. You'll need thicker spring shims however, and of course a solid cam grind(s).

Edited February 18, 2011 by petert

[cammmy 1]

^Cool. What are the valve options with this?

 

Ta

Cam

[petert1345402284 0]

^Cool. What are the valve options with this?

 

Anything you like. The new centre will open the valve like normal.

[chris adams 0]

The cheap method is to rebuild the standard lifter, depending on how much you can do yourself. Throw away the piston assembly and replace with a solid silver steel centre, which has been drilled out to reduce mass. The length of the centre is altered to adjust clearance.

 

Use Catcam PAC-S10011 springs and standard retainers. You'll need thicker spring shims however, and of course a solid cam grind(s).

 

forgive my ignorence im still learning, what do you mean when you say solid cam grinds, is it not possible to use solid lifters with standard cams ?

[Mandic 0]

No, too steep initial ramp angles.

[chris adams 0]

No, too steep initial ramp angles.

[/quot

sweet.

[cammmy 1]

Anything you like. The new centre will open the valve like normal.

 

So any valve that would be compatible with the motor in standard form (ignoring the seat re-cut)?

 

You say the titanium retainers are well worth the effort and expense. Can these still be used with the converted lifter setup and would it be worth it for a road engine?

 

I may need some help choosing valves as this is all new to me. What I lack in experience though I make up for (partially) in enthusiasm

[chris adams 0]

Anything you like. The new centre will open the valve like normal.

 

So any valve that would be compatible with the motor in standard form (ignoring the seat re-cut)?

 

You say the titanium retainers are well worth the effort and expense. Can these still be used with the converted lifter setup and would it be worth it for a road engine?

 

I may need some help choosing valves as this is all new to me. What I lack in experience though I make up for (partially) in enthusiasm

 

have you considered using smaller stem vales as the gti-6 does. also instead of enlaging the vale head to accomodate the casting restrictions try chemical metal to build up and smooth out the ridges. personally im not comfortable with using the later method so would get it built up by a proffesional welder then have it machined.

Edited February 23, 2011 by mi8 turbo

[cammmy 1]

Sorry but I don't quite understand.

 

I would have the seats re-cut and purchase larger valves to suit. I'm open to any valve options.

 

Do you mean build up the ports then machine them out to be smoother? I would look at tidying them up but this is just for my daily driver and I'm only looking at big valves/solid lifters as they already need replacing. If I'm already replacing them I may as well go better.

[petert1345402284 0]

Assuming your standard valves, springs and retainers are in good condition, you can use what ever you want to open them.

 

Also keep in mind that a standard reconditioned head flows better than most other 2L race heads. So it's often an overkill fitting big valves, and if not done properly, you won't see any improvement in flow.

 

Some folk worry about the misalignment of the valve seat and port, which causes a sharp ridge. If looking for a bit more flow, the "gap" can be filled with Belzona, then blended to smooth out the port. Keep in mind this needs to be done by a professional who will guarentee their work. A big blob of cured Belzonia down an open valve will cause losts of damage.

 

In a standard head, there's really little you can do to improve the intake ports.

 

Titanium retainers - most of the mass is in the hydraulic bucket/lifter full of oil. So removing that is what will see the biggest improvement in rev limit reliability, in addition to the superior reliability of the solid arrangement.

 

 

 

[rodionski 3 1 Cars]

Peter, did you ever consider that the "ridge" in the intake port was made on purpose?

After reading tons of material on this issue, and after looking into five stock mi16 heads produced between 1987 and 1994, I tend to include this as a possibility.

 

What beats me the most is that there are no ridges whatsoever on any of the exhaust ports, while each and every inlet port has a ridge. Surely peugeot was not that blind and careless so as not to change any of the casting to eliminate that ridge over 7+ years of production. They even had that same port design in the 2.0 mi16.

 

All this may not be easily discarded as speculation, don't you think?

 

Being no expert, I could guess that having that ridge serves a purpose of creating a specific shape of airflow, possibly curved. I don't know whether this could only be helpful for a road engine and would be detrimental to a race engine (probably so), but I would be hesitant to label this as a 100% defect.

 

[petert1345402284 0]

They even had that same port design in the 2.0 mi16.

 

No, in a 2L head, the mismatch is either very minor or non-existant. I've seen 2L heads which are almost perfect and early 1.9L heads which are dreadful. The mismatch can also vary. Some heads have an equal amount around the seat, whilst others are flush on one side and 1-2mm out on the other side of the port. So no, I doubt it was ever intended to be.

 

Also, the cut seat dimensions rarely ever match the drawings/specifications. Only in the later 2L head, can you reliably get a 70 deg. bottom cut. Most of the time, the bottom of the 45 deg. seat cut drops straight into the port.

[rodionski 3 1 Cars]

Hm, thanks - I must have luckily seen the "wrong" heads then))

And all of my heads have exactly the same way the ridge is located - one side is smooth while the opposite side has a ridge.

Again, in my thinking it is not possible that this flaw is only on inlet ports while exhaust ports are all fine.

[rodionski 3 1 Cars]

Peter, another thing - I am about to order custom bronze seats for my race engine build. I wonder whether you happen to have the drawings/specs for the seats to share? Many thanks in advance!

[chris adams 0]

Sorry but I don't quite understand.

 

I would have the seats re-cut and purchase larger valves to suit. I'm open to any valve options.

 

Do you mean build up the ports then machine them out to be smoother? I would look at tidying them up but this is just for my daily driver and I'm only looking at big valves/solid lifters as they already need replacing. If I'm already replacing them I may as well go better.

 

yea build up the ports and smooth them out to get rid of those rough casting restrictions and as a daily driver theres no need to go bigger. inproving the flow will suffice for what your using the motor for. damn quoted on this before reading peters comment which are spot on

Edited February 24, 2011 by mi8 turbo

[cammmy 1]

Right, so even though the valves need replacing (as they are smashed to peices), I shouldn't bother looking at bigger ones (in my road engine)?

 

I think I will stick with the solid lifter idea though and get a re-cam + dyno map (with extended rev limit).

 

Sound like a good idea?

[rodionski 3 1 Cars]

Why would you (or most people for that matter) even ponder the idea of bigger valves in the first place?

It is well known that stock valves as they are - are the biggest valves among all 2.0 liter engines.

I think it goes without saying that even if bigger valves are fitted - there will be no noticeable gains in the engine's performance if not done as a part of the tuning package - you will need to use different camshafts, different pulleys (adjustable), different engine management and preferably, different inlet system to gain from bigger valves.

 

Personally, I am convinced that bigger valves on this type of head is a waste of money, even as a part of thorough engine build. Simply no need to fit them.

I don't think that there are enough people with that fat of a budget to properly build the engine to the extent when valve size could become the restriction.

[rodionski 3 1 Cars]

Solid lifters, alloy spring retainers, tuned camshafts and ECU mapping to suit - those are definitely the things to go after, imho.

 

 

[petert1345402284 0]

Peter, another thing - I am about to order custom bronze seats for my race engine build. I wonder whether you happen to have the drawings/specs for the seats to share? Many thanks in advance!

 

Here you go. You can see how the bigger valve increases the port diameter, particularly with the change in the bottom cut width.

 

If it were mine, I'd just find some good second hand valves, k-line the guides and reco. Don't forget to use two shims under the springs. Then add solid lifters, retainers and reground solid cams. The benefit here is that the base circle is not important. So you can pinch some of the base circle for more lift and replace it with extra top hat shim thickness.

[cammmy 1]

Why would you (or most people for that matter) even ponder the idea of bigger valves in the first place?

 

Because mine are well and truly smashed. They need replacing anyway, absolutely no way around it. If the cost difference between OEM valves and larger ones is not too great and there is a gain to be had by fitting them, why wouldn't I?

 

 

 

If I didn't need to replace them I wouldn't bother. I do need to replace them though so why not investigate the options?

 

After hearing what you guys have to say I will probably just go with what Peter has described above. I always try to investigate all my options though (even if I don't think I will go with it) and think it's ridiculous not to do so.

 

Edit: Just so we are clear, that wasn't an angry reply. Just trying to make sure that I get the point across that my valves are trashed. I'm not looking at replacing perfectly good units with bigger ones. Just investigating whether it's worth going bigger as I need to buy new valves anyway.

[DRTDVL1345402287 0]

where is the bumble bee photo...

[cammmy 1]

 

Still don't know how that got in there