2.0l Vs 1.9l Performance

[Guest Kim_in_Melb]

Hey everyone,

 

hope you finished drooling over the earlier pix ;-)

now....anyone got a tried and tested method of improving the performance from my 2.0L Mi16 (1994) Series 2?

the amount of conflicting stories and references to 1.9L motors is scary....anyone chartered a path through this already?

only looking for moderate gains up to 180-200Hp (stock 150hp in australia, dont laugh)

 

looking forward to some responses

 

KimK

[Guest DesMi16]

To get 180-200bhp the first step is put it on throttle bodies. Totally deristricts the inlet system and stand alone management means you can set up any future mods with relative ease. If you combine that with a cam of about 283 degree at 0.1mm lift and about 11mm lift then you should be well up to about 190bhp with standard bottom end. Important thing is that you shouldn't really rev the standard rod bolts and pistons too far past 7500rpm wthout running the risk of them breaking. So if you're going for a safe 200bhp fit forged pistons and stronger rod bolts and rev it to 8000rpm with an 11.5:1 compression ratio and you should see 200bhp.

[Guest DesMi16]

Other thing to remember is that if you increase the compression ration on a 2l then take it off the block as this will give a better squish area aswell. (The pistons stop 1mm from the deck height at TDC which is why the 1.9 makes the better motor)

[petert1345402284 0]

Decking the block 1mm will get you to 11.1:1 but I wouldn't use that much camshaft. You really don't need a lot of duration in these engines and that's way too much lift for a std. head and decking the block.

 

There's really not much point opening the standard inlet valve past 9.2mm. The flow goes flat. It's more important to have an inlet cam grind with a fast accel'n that opens the valve quickly off the seat, maximising the area under the lift-duration curve. Luckily I sell such animals.

 

The other reason not to go too big is valve-piston clearance. If you dial in a cam with more than 0.100" at TDC, and you've decked the block 1mm, you're guarenteed to be in the danger zone. You definitely need to verify piston to valve clearances.

[Guest DesMi16]

The cams that we use if we are looking for 190-200bhp from a 2l is the Catcams 283 10.8 cam. This cam is within 0.100" lift at TDC and valve / piston clearance is adequate. I would not really agree that the Mi head does not benefit from extra lift as our extensive testing with these cams and the 11.5 lift on the inlet variant has shown a noticeable increase from the same 283 duration on similar engine setups and specifications. The opening speed of the valve is important. I would not disagree with that but IMO it's only one of the factors involved in maximising cylinder filling.

[petert1345402284 0]

The cams that we use if we are looking for 190-200bhp from a 2l is the Catcams 283 10.8 cam. This cam is within 0.100" lift at TDC and valve / piston clearance is adequate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What lobe centreline is that with? I had a look at their figures. With that sort of duration I'd be using 106 deg. and definitely past 0.100" @ TDC. I guess it also depends on what your definition of "adequate" is!

[Guest DesMi16]

The lobe centres on those cams are at 106degree. The lift at TDC is 0.096" for inlet and 0.073" for exhaust. The first build i did with these cams on a 1.9 I did a trial build with no head gasket and had no valve clash so therefor >1.6mm valve clearance which in my view is defintely adequate.

 

i understand what you are saying about using a fast opening angle to allow the valve to be held at maximum lift longer. Out of interest, what results have you had with your cams. Would be very interested to know. Always looking for different options as my move towards Catcams was determined from the realisation of how bad the profiles of the well known cam companies are.

[petert1345402284 0]

I guess I'm more conservative with hydraulic lifters. I think 0.080" on the inlet and 0.100" on the exhaust is the minimum. What the exact number is, is anyones guess. I haven't had a prang yet so I guess only time will tell! Tighter for solids however.

 

I make it 0.190" total at TDC (inc. gasket), and approx. 0.182" at 6 deg. ATDC. The Stage II inlet regrind I sell is 0.106" (with 106 LCL) @ TDC. This leaves a theoretical 0.084" @ TDC, slightly less at 6 deg. ATDC. With TB's and a big valve head, this combo makes 200+hp.

 

I've seen a Kent regrind and they look very "pointy" compared to mine.

[Guest DesMi16]

Agree on the Kent grind. Also found that no two Piper grinds are the same. Found this out when we had a 205 and 309 with identical engine specs head to head over 1/4 mile. 309 won by 0.5 seconds. When put on the rollers the 309 had 172bhp @7100rpm and the 205 had 161@6450rpm. Measured cams and 309 had 264 and 9.9 lift and 205 had 264 and 8.7 lift. Measured 3 other sets and found the same variation.

 

That's good power from that grind. The big valves and extra duration around max lift look like they work well together to give 200bhp.

 

I'm perfectly happy with 1.6mm on valve clearance. Have run this reliably on many track cars on hydraulic lifters at 8000rpm. I personally feel that if the engine experienced over extension to this degree then 1.6 or 2.6mm would not make enough difference to avoid the clatter of valves on pistons as this would be past the point of forcing the piston past the circlip retainer (as discovered on one bad boy customers Saxo VTS. Sat there bouncing it off the limiter stationary, showing off to his mates, and wondered why his valves suddenly hit the pistons). Also don't agree with the current fad of putting GpA oil pump springs in for the same reason on hydraulics.

[petert1345402284 0]

Amazingly that grind has only 0.350" max. lift, 0.012" less than standard. It's a bargain for the price if you've got the goodies to go with it. I find it difficult to quote flywheel hp, as nobody measures that way in Australia, unless you pull the engine out. It does make a genuine 113kW at the wheels. That equates to 200hp in my book. By comparison, a GTi180 makes 98-100kW.

 

That's ceratinly right about the oil pressure. The extra pressure can only contibute to lifter pump up, not alleviate it.

[Guest Kim_in_Melb]

Hey Peter and Des

 

straight up...thank you both!!

 

where to start ?? !!

 

had to take the car down to the dealership today to get some things fixed that were under warranty. The guys at the workshop even let me have a look at the computer diagnosis on the car...very interesting...and we found that my dual length inlet manifold has been working in one length mode only(dodgy solenoid and vacuum diaphragms) the solenoid comes in tomorrow so hopefully she will be all healthy again for a while to come. They have replaced the o2 senseor as well ;-) bonus!

 

So it comes down to cams and headwork?? No problem....from what Peter is saying and Des i think you're backing up this assertion, I can indeed deck the block by 0.040" and should not run my valves into my piston crowns. ( i have no intentions of sitting on the rev limiter going nowhere Des!! ;-) ) Once i have done this and put in new condrod bearings and piston rings i think i should be ready to bolt the re-conditioned head/uprated cam back on...Peters' stage two jobby. If the budget allows will probably stretch to a full bottom end blueprint. just for reliability ;-)

 

Using the cam with the new height of the deck will most likely involve getting vernier gear made up for the cam/cams...so you know my next question....what spec will match up with the new deck height and set the cam in the 106 degree sweet spot? (just a little stupid question...in V8 land they talk of straight cut cam gears or solids?? is this possible on a OHC motor?? hehehehe)

 

For Des's & Peters' info...additional planned mods....(my thoughts)

hi-flow cat (or not if i can find someone to put it straight through ;-) )

front cross-drilled ventilated discs, uprated pads and fluid

gasket kit and headbolts

magna 4 cyl injectors (check fuel pump specs to see if they can handle uprated injector flow rates, swirlpot for road use?? i didn't think so )

new engine management system (most likely MOTEC unless you recommend me something else)

mobil 1 for engine internals (not blowing up all this work with cheapo oil)

front strut tower brace

 

The other area in which i am still completely in the dark is the engine tuning and upgrading the ECU to MOTEC or similar systems. Wiring harnesses?? Location and fitment?? Base maps / inputs to get it up and running?? I am learning that this is pretty much a voodoo science!!! Who can i talk to to find out more about this side of the equation?? all the best parts in the world are not going to help me without a good tuner!!

 

i have probably left out some things...but for now I'll let your eyes have a rest!!

thanks heaps for your replies guys!! it's good to feel like part of a group and i spose once i start ill have to get a running commentary going on here as well ;-)

 

take care

 

KimK

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agree on the Kent grind. Also found that no two Piper grinds are the same. Found this out when we had a 205 and 309 with identical engine specs head to head over 1/4 mile. 309 won by 0.5 seconds. When put on the rollers the 309 had 172bhp @7100rpm and the 205 had 161@6450rpm. Measured cams and 309 had 264 and 9.9 lift and 205 had 264 and 8.7 lift. Measured 3 other sets and found the same variation.

 

That's good power from that grind. The big valves and extra duration around max lift look like they work well together to give 200bhp.

 

I'm perfectly happy with 1.6mm on valve clearance. Have run this reliably on many track cars on hydraulic lifters at 8000rpm. I personally feel that if the engine experienced over extension to this degree then 1.6 or 2.6mm would not make enough difference to avoid the clatter of valves on pistons as this would be past the point of forcing the piston past the circlip retainer (as discovered on one bad boy customers Saxo VTS. Sat there bouncing it off the limiter stationary, showing off to his mates, and wondered why his valves suddenly hit the pistons). Also don't agree with the current fad of putting GpA oil pump springs in for the same reason on hydraulics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[petert1345402284 0]

With the new cam and 0.040" off the block you're going to have to measure the bucket lift at TDC to get it in the sweet spot, adjusting a vernier pulley to suit. A std. #2 pulley will be fine on the exhaust.

 

The Magna injectors will be fine @ 3 Bar with the standard fuel pump and 200hp.

 

As for ECU's, I can give you either a base map for an Autronic or a Haltech. You could copy the values from the Autronic into a Motec. I wouldn't loose sleep over not having either Autronic or Motec. An E6X Haltech will do everything you need for a 4 cyl. I think they're a bargain at their current pricing. I can help you out with wiring. I cut the end off 1.9L Mi16 looms and graft on Haltech plugs.

[Guest Kim_in_Melb]

Hey Peter,

 

Well today was a good day!! Think i got a new job!! and got back my two-stage inlet manifold!! woah...the torque!!! Also Peter I have found a Valeo importer in melbourne!!! EAI (03) 9899 6683 these guys also have the brake discs that i want!!!

and for the tiny little cosmetic plastic bits...BM Spares 1300 735 740 (parcel shelf plugs, wiring clips etc)

 

Spoke to a few tuning places down here today as well....one guy I spoke to has plenty experience with those ECU's (HALTECH) so I think i will travel down this route.....i will go out and see him soon and discuss further but he seems like a striaght up and down bloke ;-) is 1350 for the E6X a bargain?? ($130/hour on the dyno) and i think i still need a few extra modules.....can even tune it using the two stage manifold!!! I was really only keen on MOTEC because of the racing heritage that comes along with it!! the MOTEC would give me too much functionality anyway....i would never use it to it's full potential!!

 

just out of interest.....what are the base maps you have for the Haltech?? is it a similar config to what I am planning? you know stage 2 cam...vernier pulley...adjustable throttle body tract length....injectors etc etc

 

thanks again....the MS Project timeline and budgeting is next.....then all i need is the cash!! But should hopefully be offered a sales position next week!!

 

take care guys

KimK

 

 

With the new cam and 0.040" off the block you're going to have to measure the bucket lift at TDC to get it in the sweet spot, adjusting a vernier pulley to suit. A std. #2 pulley will be fine on the exhaust.

 

The Magna injectors will be fine @ 3 Bar with the standard fuel pump and 200hp.

 

As for ECU's, I can give you either a base map for an Autronic or a Haltech. You could copy the values from the Autronic into a Motec. I wouldn't loose sleep over not having either Autronic or Motec. An E6X Haltech will do everything you need for a 4 cyl. I think they're a bargain at their current pricing. I can help you out with wiring. I cut the end off 1.9L Mi16 looms and graft on Haltech plugs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[petert1345402284 0]

just out of interest.....what are the base maps you have for the Haltech?? 

 

I have a few. I'll throw in Motronic trigger, wasted spark, 185hp 1.9L Mi16 map with the cam. You'll be able to turn the key and drive to Sydney. It will just need some fine tuning on the top end for the bigger cam and larger capacity.