Torsion Bars, Arb's Or Both?

[BlueBolt 156]

OK, So I want to be upgrading the rear suspenison and making everything a little on the stiffer side of things in order to run the suspension that I already have on the front end.....

 

So, I know eventually I want to be replacing both the anti roll bar and the torsion bars, but is it alright (read safe) to do one and leave the other standard while I get some more money in the bank??

If so, which way round would I do it?? Thicken up torsion bar and leave the ARB? Or thicken up ARB and leave torsion bar... And why???

I have no doubt once it's explained to me I'll be kicking myself and wondering why I even asked in the first place lol

 

I'll be looking up the how's later, but I'm guessing it's not a simple one out and one in job for either... "End plates" is something I've seen mentioned??

 

Any advise is, as always, greatly appreciated already

[cybernck 402 1 Cars]

There are two torsion bars and one ARB, so it's about twice as pricey to uprade the former than the latter .

 

If I were in your shoes though, I'd save up until I can get both - or buy them in stages but wait with fitting

until you've got everything ready and also able to do (or get done) a rear beam rebuild at the same time.

But that's me - I hate doing (essentially) the same job multiple times.

 

But to answer your question, if you've got fairly upgraded and stiffer front suspension (namely springs),

I'd upgrade the TB's first. If not, then I'd be inclined to do the ARB first and see how you like that.

 

Don't know if this will help you really but it's some food for thought either way .

[Baz 421]

Of course it's fine to put the TB's in and leave the ARB standard, it'll work ok like that too, if you later then want to get a bigger one, they're easily swapped, unlike the TB's.

 

As Nik says though, you'll likely need a beam rebuild if it hasn't been before, may as well if changing the bars. For that reason you might want to do it the other way round, fit an uprated ARB initially and save for bigger TB's & a beam rebuild.

[BlueBolt 156]

Fortunately, although not at the time, she was treated to a recon beam when she was down with Miles getting the '6 lump and ITB's fitted. So this isn't an issue for now.

 

Which job is harder/more hassle to complete?? The tb's or the arb??

 

Thanks both for your opinions though

[Cameron 16]

TB's are much more hassle!

[welshpug 1,655]

If its been apart recently i wouldnt call it hassle at all, it will tke longer to dro.oft course, especially ic you havent done one before.

[BlueBolt 156]

Which will have more effect at stiffening up the rear end? I know both ideally....

And what are the thickest "ideal" options?? I have no doubt that somewhere someone has fitted a scaffold bar thickness arb but that's a little impractical to my thinking lol

Edited August 8, 2012 by BlueBolt

[Anthony 1,002]

What suspension is on the front currently, as that will dictate what to use on the back, as will what you primarily use the car for (e.g. year round daily driver, fast road car, track car etc)?

 

Torsion bars and anti-roll bars affect the car and handling in different ways. Ideally, in my opinion anyway, you want to set the basic handling balance with the torsion bars to match the front end and then fine tune the balance and turn in using an anti-roll bar - although many people just throw in a big ARB and are happy with the effect that gives.

[BlueBolt 156]

I've got a set of coils to go on that will not allow the use of the front arb as per a thread I started a while ago...

Edited August 8, 2012 by BlueBolt

[BlueBolt 156]

And the car is for a fast road / occasional track... I do use her often and most days, but the journey to work is not a long one and I'm not fussed about the way she is on boring journeys as a result of improving the handling for the fast road and occasional track time....

[Cameron 16]

What spring rate up front?

[BlueBolt 156]

Not 100% sure but will more than likely be replacing springs for something with a reasonably high rate...

[Cameron 16]

Such as...................?

 

Help us help you, we can't recommend you a TB thickness if we don't know what rate you plan to use up front.

 

If you're going for track bias, I'd go with 350lb/in up front and 24mm at the rear.. this was surprisingly comfy on the road with Gaz Gold dampers. As a comparison my 250lb/in on GHA's was very harsh!

[johnnyboy666 195 1 Cars]

its very much personal preference I think. My car is base model up front (so track control arms instead of wishbones) so I started by stiffening up the front on gaz gha coilovers and fitted a 23mm rear arb, which was much better than standard. then followed with a refurbed beam with gti bars (slightly thicker compared to the base model ones) and today I fitted some adjustable gaz shocks on the rear to match the front a little better. very happy with it at the moment (the new shocks compared to the GTi6 ones I had on there is night and day).

Although I think I'll be fitting thicker TB's when the budget lets me

I think if your using coilovers that'll let you match the front to the rear easily as you can adjust ride height, shock poundage dampers settings etc

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Never a answer on this one,

 

Example of the set up I have on a customers 306 (Not a 205 I know but the chassis is pretty much the same),

Over a certain 2 timed section's at the Hillclimb I use I am the/one of the fastest FWD car's there not on slicks but even then I'm not far off at all (No LSD either)

That's with, Bilstein B8 Dampers up front with Eibach springs, Group N rear Dampers, Std Torsion bars and a 30mm rear ARB

 

I'm running this set up on my 306 bar 21mm Torsion bar's and Xsara Arm's but with a Proper diff so it will be good to compare next year when she's going

 

So the set up really does depend on use,

[BlueBolt 156]

Cameron:

Was thinking something along the lines of 350/375, the shocks were originally focus rs coilover setup so based on a heavier car to start with. They were bought from Sam (now lives in Ausi but brought off here). Hence the lack of drop links on the front end...

 

The shocks are something I hadn't even thought about but are now on the list. I'll be looking out for something suitable for the setup. More than likely something like the Gaz adjustable ones available.

 

Miles:: 30mm arb??? What on earth is that off?? And how much is that likely to set me back??? Sounds like the kind of thing I'd be needing to find an alternative securing method for as the standard wouldn't be able to take it...

You mention that that's on a 306 though, so I'm gonna guess its not the kind of thing that would be advisable for the 205... What's the thickest easily available arb for the 205?

And what else do I need to fit to get it on? Or will standard joints etc work?

[Anthony 1,002]

350-375lb is far too hard for a road car in my opinion.

 

Personally, I believe that for road cars the best thing is to keep them comparatively soft and compliant. Hard works on a smooth track, but down a typical rutted B-road with potholes and broken tarmac, it's absolutely hopeless frankly, particularly when mated with distinctly mediocre dampers.

 

Not only that, but from memory you don't have a cage do you? Big spring rates / bars and no cage just tends to result in the shell flexing and compromising the effectiveness of the suspension setup.

 

You can do a 30mm ARB in a 205 if you get one made, but you wouldn't want to do so on a road car, and most trailing arm shafts won't take a bar that large without machining anyway. Personally I would go with something in the 22 - 25mm range, depending on your own preference when it comes to the balance between turn-in and stability.

[BlueBolt 156]

I believe that for road cars the best thing is to keep them comparatively soft and compliant. Hard works on a smooth track, but down a typical rutted B-road with potholes and broken tarmac

 

That's a fare comment... And food for thought!!

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

30's the way to go on anything, Personal preference even on a 205.

Mind I'd check as said the dia of the shafts, I have know some that do not take anything larger than 2mm over standard

[chipstick 382 1 Cars]

I'd price some options up first if I were you, as this may influence what you realistically can afford/justify going for.

 

Your potentially talking mid to high 3 figure numbers depending on whether you go for some GHA's and an ARB or both of those with an ARB also.

 

I obviously don't know your circumstances, but you do see budget depicting an outcome - whether it actually being the one you want or is recommended.

 

I'm in a similar position currently. You start sourcing the bits you would like, and then soon figure out what you then ideally need - and it always costs more than you may ideally like to spend or at least can justify compared to what you intitially thought it may cost.

 

You spend several hundred on coilovers and a cage for example, then you think 'ah yeah I'll get some thicker bars'. Then you realise you may need to rebuild your rear beam (I understand you may not fit in this catagory), then perhaps you may want a new ARB also. Plus some new lower arm parts and decent droplinks etc. The next thing you know you've ordered a couple of bits and know your commited to spending hundred more adding to those components to make them work for you.

 

It reminds me of the threads you see pop up like 'I want 200bhp' or 'I am thinking about supercharging, I have saved up 2k so what next'. I frequently see people start these things with prices in mind which they skim read and then quite frankly s*it themselves at the though of £50 for some hose clips. You are either commited to spending more than the thing is worth - because you want results, or you aren't realistic.

 

One thing I would advise you of, is to think of the next step. When you have the suspension sorted to how you want it, what's next? Give that some thought, and when you have a good idea of the direction you want to go, you can price that up, and make the current step count towards that goal in a sensible manner.

[BlueBolt 156]

I have a huge list of of plans for the car, the most expensive of which is a full engine rebuild with forged parts and big larey cams and so on... But thats a few years away yet, for now it's about the handling and rigidity of the car. The rear setup and then a cage, full or half or what I haven't decided on yet but the suspension is followed by that... Like I say, I have a long, long list of "to do" bits!!

 

Large rear arb will be the start and I'll see what I can get to fit in at the weekend when I have some spare time. Start with that and the front suspension can leave the cupboard and go onto the car...

 

Cost, and finances are something that I always appreciate are a bit of a snowball effect with the 205... Everything I've done so far has cost me more than I intended it to!! Lots more in some cases!!!

[Cameron 16]

It reminds me of the threads you see pop up like 'I want 200bhp' or 'I am thinking about supercharging, I have saved up 2k so what next'. I frequently see people start these things with prices in mind which they skim read and then quite frankly s*it themselves at the though of £50 for some hose clips. You are either commited to spending more than the thing is worth - because you want results, or you aren't realistic.

 

This is absolutely bang on, and the reason you see so many projects getting abandoned 3/4's of the way through! Too many people just price up the main components and assume that the little bits and pieces cost nothing, then they either have to overspend, bodge, or sell.

[BlueBolt 156]

I'm one for the overspend!! Lol

 

I'm also down the learning and planning stage though so I now don't start a job till I know I have everything I need, by which time I've already spent out, and have everything I need...

[BlueBolt 156]

I'm quite honestly shocked at the reasonable price of the rear shocks from GAZ in their 2012 Catalogue!! And that's without doing any looking around and seeing what's available elsewhere on discount or anything like....

[chipstick 382 1 Cars]

I'm quite honestly shocked at the reasonable price of the rear shocks from GAZ in their 2012 Catalogue!! And that's without doing any looking around and seeing what's available elsewhere on discount or anything like....

 

You should have got in on the group buy!