Front Toe Angle?

[d7ve_b 44 1 Cars]

Hi All,

 

I'm considering booking the 205 in to have the front alignment checked and adjusted and I was wondering if there were any recommended toe angles to run? The spec of car is as follows:

 

1.6 GTI

Front: Billy B4's, Eibach springs, BBM fast round top mounts, standard ARB & wishbone and bush arrangement

Rear: Refurb'd beam lowered to suit the front, GTI6 arms, standard beam sandwich mounts and solid front mounts, GTI6 shocks, 24mm ARB, standard torsion bars

Use: Fast road blaster!

Reason for alignment/tracking: Steering wheel is off centre at the moment, otherwise it handles great

 

Anyone have any experience they could share?

 

Thanks,

Dave.

[Tom Fenton 1,540]

If you adjust it carefully you can straighten the wheel up without altering the overall toe angle. If you position the wheel where you want it to be when straight, then look at the front wheels you will see one is toeing out and one in. You need to alter both sides the same amount of turns on the track rod, adjusting each wheel from toein/out to straight ahead. Best way really is to go out and find a quiet ind estate and take some spanners, drive it/adjust both sides/drive it again and see where the wheel is.

[S@m 156]

Set it up for your own personal preference, a degree of toe out will improve turn in, whereas a degree of toe in will improve straight line stability but at the expense of a little turn in. I used to run my 306 with a degree of toe out to make it more 'pointy' but a run the 205 parallel because it turns in well enough for me anyway.

 

But as said, set it as you like it!

[Anthony 1,002]

Somewhere between 0 degree (straight ahead) and about 20 minutes toe-in is how I normally set 205's, depending on preference/usage.

 

Basically, the more toe-in, the less twitchy the car feels in a straight line on the motorway etc, but the less eager it is to turn into corners. Taking it to extremes and having a spot of toe-out makes for a car that's incredibly eager to turn but is hateful on the motorway and requires constant corrections to keep it straight.

 

I'd probably say that if it's purely a B-road fun toy then go for 0 toe initially, and if it's a bit much, add 10 minutes of toe in to stablise it.

 

As Tom says though, if it is otherwise OK, it's possible to adjust and keep the tracking as-is. What Tom doesn't mention (as I'm guessing he did it for you when he had the car last year) is that it's imperitive to ensure that the rack is properly centered first (same amount of lock left and right) and then adjust the TRE's, rather than doing as many people/garages do and adjust the TRE's to attempt to straighten a rack that isn't centralised.

[d7ve_b 44 1 Cars]

Cheers Tom, I'd give it a go myself but I quite fancy getting someone with an alignment machine to give it the once over and provide me a printout of the setup, and after all the investment in new suspension and tyre's etc, what I'll be paying for the service will be a drop in the ocean (I also have discount ) I just wondered if anyone had any experience of good toe angles to run in a setup similar to mine?

 

Is parallel the way forward? (so to speak )

[Tom Fenton 1,540]

For your car I would suggest slightly toe in, say 10 minutes in. If you can get it at a decent price then go for it, the problem on a 205 is that apart from the front toe nothing else can be adjusted without removing parts and having them machined.

 

As above it is somewhat of a personal preference, on a standard car it isn't so noticeable, but I once set my turbo to 30minutes toe out and it dragged itself all over the road when on boost, it was all you could manage to keep it in a straight line.

[d7ve_b 44 1 Cars]

You're all too quick at typing!

 

Thanks Sam and Anthony, the car is nice and pointy already so I think might just stick 0 degrees. I don't do many motorway miles in it but I don't fancy having to constantly correct the car if I do go on the motorway, it'll also be easier for the missus to drive (should I ever let her out in it!).

 

Tom did sort the car last year and I'm confident that he's centred the rack (he is a talented chap after all).

[d7ve_b 44 1 Cars]

If only I had turbo boost to worry about

 

Oh well, I've still got my eye on a set of bodies

[Cameron 16]

It's all a matter of personal preference, there is no right or wrong, but as said toe-out greatly improves steering response at the cost of straight-line stability. I would recommend you ask whoever is doing your tracking for you to check what it is currently set to then base your decision on that, seeing as you like it how it is currently. If you want more steering response then increase the toe-out. If you're getting it on the cheap then you can always give a setting a go, then if you don't like it have it set back to what it was.

 

I set mine to 2mm toe-out (front edge of wheel rim - rear edge of wheel rim) using the string box method as I prefer improved turn-in to being able to cruise with a finger resting on the wheel. If it means I have to stay awake while driving then so be it, these cars are meant to be fun after all!

Edited August 7, 2012 by Cameron

[j_turnell 136 3 Cars]

Agree with the above I would run a small amount of toe-in 5-10mins per side. Someone mentioned a degree of toe out! That's a crazy amount, will handle terrible and scrub the inside edges of the tyres potentially!

 

I would get it setup properly. Any reputable garage with decent kit will do. Id Reccomend using a hunter system as I use one every day of the week and they are excellent.

 

Yes only front toe is adjustable but it will tell you if there are any other problems, bent stub axle for example. Also when locking off the TRE's the toe can change upto 7-8mins so what you may think your setting it too isn't the actual figure. Obviously you can't do this with a spanner on the side of the road, you need live figures.

 

 

[d7ve_b 44 1 Cars]

Thanks for all the input gents, I'm toying between 5-10mins toe-in and parallel, although I like the idea of seeing what it's currently set at and taking it from there.

[matt.f 16]

Also use Hunter/Pro Align everyday of the week,very good system.Will be doing my 205 when complete

[Cameron 16]

String!

[matt.f 16]

Rack of the eye!

[d7ve_b 44 1 Cars]

Update time!

 

I went this morning and had it laser aligned on a hunter machine, rather than rabbit on I'll let the pics do the talking....

 

One the ramps:

 

 

Before and after figures:

 

 

In summary, the car now handles brilliantly. What a fabulous machine a 205 is when it's working and the sun is shining, it's so good I've just rung it's neck all the way back from having the work done

 

Anyway, now it handles as I like it, it's time for bodies!!

[Anthony 1,002]

How on earth has the camber on the offside rear wheel supposedly nearly halved when the other hasn't changed?

 

Can only assume the sensor is a little suspect or wasn't fitted properly, as clearly that makes no sense otherwise.

 

Anyway, glad that you're happy with the handling - these old tin cans really are a joy to behold when they're properly setup and driving well

[d7ve_b 44 1 Cars]

How on earth has the camber on the offside rear wheel supposedly nearly halved when the other hasn't changed?

 

Confused, what do you mean? Offside rear camber went from -1'02 to -0'59, isn't this only a 0'03 change? And the near side rear camber changed from -1'12 to -1'19?

 

This is all a bit new to me so please excuse any noob observations!

[Anthony 1,002]

Actually, yes you're right, ignore me

 

I was thinking that it was in 1/100th of a degree, rather than in minutes. Clearly in minutes it makes perfect sense...

[welshpug 1,655]

still, there shouldn't be any difference at all in the rear geometry as its not adjustable.

[Anthony 1,002]

There's always a slight degree of error/noise in the readings, particularly as the car inevitably gets moved fractionally when adjusting the tracking and the tracking arms/sensors jolted slightly. A few hundredth here and there is nothing of concern and fairly normal from what I've seen.

[Toddy 7]

Is the handling different a placebo affect? Just that the total toe has only changed by circa 0.2mm from roughly 1.8mm toe in to 2.0mm toe in so should feel very slightly less responsive. Also the rear toe which isn't adjustable has also changed by roughly 0.2mm from 3.6mm total toe in to 3.8mm total toe in.

 

Did they add ballast to take into account the weight of the driver affecting the geometry?

[d7ve_b 44 1 Cars]

The handling being different could be the placebo effect but who'd know as how well it handles is purely subjective anyway...but it certainly feels like it has more turn in when in a corner. One thing that's certainly not placebo effect is the steering wheel being straight when going forwards!

 

I don't know if they added ballast or not but they didn't ask me my weight when I gave them the keys

[Tom Fenton 1,540]

Dave, ignore the numbers, so long as it feels good to you that is all that matters.