Front Brakes Nearly Failed Mot, Upgrade Time

[Russ_T 1]

Hello,

 

I've been searching through this forum and there is any amount of advice and good ideas.

 

Basically my rear drums on my DTurbo (with ABS) made the MOT no problem yesterday (thanks to days and days of messing about with the compensators last year). The fronts though not so much!

 

I have fitted SMRs to my car, so have a bit more clearance. I'm looking to improve things without having to change master cylinder or too much else. I could rebuild mine, but seems a lot of effort for stock braking.

 

Looking at this thread, I could easily overbrake the front

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=36116&st=80

 

I guess braided hoses whilst I'm in there, but without throwing money at it what do we think? Get some GTi-6 calipers, or something from a 206/307? Or just a freshly built set of GTi calipers (and discs/pads as necessary).

 

Are my DTurbo discs the same size or smaller? The front discs/pads are pretty new, so a shame not to use them but...

 

If anyone has a setup for sale with good discs/pads then ideal. I suppose I want to spend around £100 or so, I saw the Wilwoods for £250 and wanted them badly but ought to save for a new 205 really and stop spending on this one.

 

I'm sure this topic has been convered 50 times, but the search facility on this site rarely works for me (if at all??) and I cannot find a thread giving me the answer.

 

Thank you

[Tom Fenton 1,540]

First question is, what is the matter with what you have, as if working properly they should be more than capable of passing the MOT.

[BlueBolt 156]

I've personally gone gti6 with a good set of pads (Mintex 1144) and Peugeot discs, when the discs need replacing I will be going for the flat Brembo disc.

I've kept my standard mc, though I have bought a new one to replace it with, but still stayed standard 1900 size. Not sure mc you run on the DTurbo's...??

 

I recon'd my '6 calipers before fitting, not much effort for peace of mind... Just wish I'd have painted them before fitting!!

[Anthony 1,002]

What element(s) of the brake test did the current setup nearly fail on? Effort? Balance?

 

Either way, talk of GTi-6 brakes or Wilwoods is completely overkill for a TD - hell, they're overkill for most GTi's even with 16v conversions IMO, but that's another matter entirely.

 

Assuming that your car is standard, it will likely have the same Bendix caliper as a 1.6 GTi, and these don't tend to age well and can give distinctly underwhelming performance. Personally, I would just fit a pair of 1.9 (Girling) calipers and decent standard pads (e.g. Ferodo Premier), which will work with your existing MC, hoses and newish disks, and give more than sufficient stopping power for road and mild track use.

 

As Tom says though, in any reasonable state of health standard front brakes should sail through an MOT - the standard required to pass an MOT is really quite low. Something is clearly broken on yours if it only just scrapped through.

[Russ_T 1]

Thank you guys.

 

 

Well I think my MOT guy is exagerating, but they just need a good service, they get driven through a lot of crap and who knows if and when they were last looked at.

 

They aren't the best for stopping anyway, and I think it pulls a tiny bit to the o/s under hard braking. It'll outbrake a Morris Minor any day, but if you're wanging along the lanes it's nice to have a decent setup.

 

I will certainly rebuild and paint anything I get, just for peace of mind like you say

 

Ok, I think the 1.9 calipers seem the best bet, thank you. I might get some braded hoses at the same time, fresh fluid, happy days.

 

Now to peruse the for sale section here. Thank you again, saved me some money

[BlueBolt 156]

I might get some braded hoses at the same time, fresh fluid, happy days.

 

A lot of people (including myself until recently) don't realise it's advisable to change the fluid every two years. Depending on how much you use the car obviously

[Russ_T 1]

Yep, brake fluid is hygroscopic t's not just that, but how often you open the cap on the master cylinder, how long the brake fluid bottle has been unsealed on the shelf in your garage etc, all times when it's absorbing some moisture. The water in your fluid has a lower boiling point, heats up, becomes gas = bubbles in your brake fluid = easier to compress = less braking power.

 

Although if you go DOT 5 (not 5.1) to silicone based fluid I think you avoid the problem, and it doesn't catch fire in a crash AND it doesn't knacker your paint.

 

Wonderful thing about autos, there is always something to learn and some way to improve something

[Russ_T 1]

Oh and don't mix Dot 4/5.1 with Dot 5!!! Just in case anyone was going to rush out and buy some. Read about it properly, you're most likely looking at replacing everything (and you can't use it in Rollers or Citroens if I remember correctly, or maybe it's what they use in Rollers, something like that)

[S@m 156]

Doesn't DOT 5 absorb air or somesuch and needs to be changed more often? I am not 100% sure but i seem to remember there being a reason not to use it in a roadcar...cursed unreliable memory!

 

Also, i think that what you said about rollers and citroens is to do with the fact that some old models (BX, Xantia etc.) use LHM fluid for suspension, steering and brakes and as such cannot use DOT3/4/5/5.1 as it is incompatible with the seals in those calipers.

 

Sam

[Russ_T 1]

I think you're right on the Citroens/Rollers Sam, nice one.

 

I learnt my Dot5 stuff when I bought a really nice brake flaring tool from Automec. Here's everything to know on it...

 

http://www.mamut.net/automec_uk/

 

[Russ_T 1]

I can even reuse my DTurbo pads for now can't I? I know they won't be as good as sobered but they're worn to my discs and quite new...

 

Cheers

[welshpug 1,655]

doubt it, are they not bendix ones? they're likely to be the cause anyway!

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

Dot 5 is spongey and awful, only good in pre '60's cars, we run it in my dad's Austin.

I put it in when I rebuilt and replaced my whole braking system, as it doesn't absorb moisture and that it never needs replacing.

I flushed the whole lot out once I realised how bad it was for my purpose.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Simes

[Russ_T 1]

Really?? I read it had a higher boiling point so instantly thought "motorsport!".

 

That's really interesting and worth knowing, thanks for saving me from making the same mistake.

 

 

 

RE the pads - I'll check on the weekend. The reason I thought I could use the same ones was on ebay I can buy pads that fit a GTi and a DTurbo...

 

I suppose I should stop being a tight git and get some decent pads and make the most of the upgrade. Don't tell the missus, I'm not supposed to spend anything on the 205 lol.

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

Rebuild the front calipers and bleed the whole system also.

Veering off could be a ineffective piston.

[Anthony 1,002]

DOT5 and DOT5.1 are very different and completely incompatible with one another.

 

DOT5.1 is what you want for a 205.

 

Assuming your calipers are Bendix (same as 1.6 GTi) then the pads are very different to those for the Girling 1.9 GTi calipers.

[Russ_T 1]

Thank you Anthony, I'll check this weekend. I drove her to work today and the breaks aren't that bad, can't wait to see what she's like with better ones.

 

Thanks

[allye 530 3 Cars]

Just want to chip in and say the 1.9 calipers on my XS with a 6 engine are more than up to the job. I fully rebuilt my calipers, new m/s etc and the guy at the MOT station was shocked how good they were......for a 205

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

I'm sure I've seen at least one d Turbo in a breakers that only had solid discs upfront but most have vented using 1.9 GTI discs & 1.6 GTI Bendix calipers, same as the STDT.

 

I don't think you need to go for braided hoses but new standard ones are cheap & would be worth doing but you might end up doing the solid lines from the m/c as well.

 

The flexi's can break up internally & can restrict the fluid flow, releasing at least when they get old.

 

For the little money needed to do this though, it's well worth while.

 

g

[Russ_T 1]

Thanks allye, GTi breaks are definitely the way I'm going. Just need to find a set for sale now that are the right money.

 

New standard hoses are a good idea for the price. I also have a flaring tool (had to replace the lines to the rear for the MOT last year) so would happily upgrade from the MC. The MC was new two MOTs ago as well so should be fine.

 

So 1) see what calipers I have, and most likely I'll want

 

1.9 GTi Girling calipers

Rebuild kit for them (just seals, dont want to replace pots really as I imagine thats more money).

New flexi hoses

Probably pads although see what calipers I have

Can of bright red spray paint or yellow so everyone knows its a race car *ahem*

 

Can't wait

[allye 530 3 Cars]

Get the seal kit from big red, very good. I advise to change the M/C for a 1.9 item as a base model one will give long travel on the bigger brakes.

 

Oh and don't paint them red you tart! I did mine in high temp black paint.

[Russ_T 1]

LOL I was just teasing about the red, haven't done that since I was 17 lol

 

Bah more things to buy, thanks for the heads up though

[Russ_T 1]

Just for future reference, my K plate DTurbo comes with the Bendix calipers, they look AMAZING ... lol

 

Edited June 8, 2012 by Russ_T

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

I advise to change the M/C for a 1.9 item as a base model one will give long travel on the bigger brakes.

The standard TD 19mm m/c is fine, there really isn't any difference in pedal travel between the two imo.

 

The Bendix & Girling calipers both have the same size pistons afaik so once they are all bled up with new flexis etc you should notice a massive difference in brake performance, although with new flexi's, discs & pads on the current set up after a good check over & clean up of the calipers you might find a big difference in performance compared to now.

 

Check the sliders on your bendix calipers are free & you might not need to replace them, unless you specifically wanted to that is.

 

g

[Russ_T 1]

Well my rear drum has started binding on again so I'm temporarily holding the cash for a disc upgrade for the rear.

 

If I get time this weekend I might go made with a can of brake cleaner and see what I can do. I'll pay attention to the sliders, so used to having pots of both sides of the caliper that I don't think of them too much.

 

I'll leave the mc for now and see what I think once converted, thank you.