[engine_work] I Forgot How Much I Missed It!

[camgti 56]

Hi Rich,

Long time no see mate. I still remember that day we had a beer when you visited last! Hope alls well.

 

Good news its an RS. Ive just finished an engine conversion over here. Its actually a J4r. Has PeterT regrinds that give similar spec to RS cams. Its got the RS inlet manifold and exhaust running a Haltech and msd ignition. Should be interesting. Any way, Ive also been thinking about the oil catch can setup, as I've plated over the emission gear on the TB. Your system seems fine, Im probably going to plumb the inner oil breather straight to a can and run a return as ive go no funds to buy anything at the moment!!

 

Is this for when you run ITBs?

[HERMAN 33]

Hello Rich is it your car that Dave Walker mentions in this months PPC mag?

[Anthony 1,003]

The 1.9 Mi16 rear coolant union won't fit, but from memory earlier XU10 and some XUD9 ones will. Pretty sure I've one here if you want to run the cooling system 8v/Mi16 style.

 

No need for the extra pipe from the catch tank to the block btw - just take one from the head to the catch tank, and then breath any excess pressure in the tank to atmosphere.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Don't know about PPC, but if it looks like mine it probably is, as John was taking photos, and they rarely have engines go bang on the rollers.

 

The coolant union I figured out, and I have options to use the 2-outlet (plus large - 3 total) alloy one I have on the Mi block already (I think) or with 100% certainty I can use another alloy 3-outlet one which I've test fitted to the '6 block. I plan to not use the '6 metal rear hose, but fit the coolant union with silicon hoses already fitted and route them to the bulkhead around the '6 manifold.

 

I've already modified the oil breather pipe routing, which does vent to atmosphere with the breather on top of the catch tank. I just have it set up to circulate in a closed loop.

 

PLEASE SEE MY FOR SALE AD FOR GTI6 ITEMS NOT REQUIRED (Coil packs, cambelt cover, clutch etc).

[welshpug 1,657]

I do hope you are running belt covers Rich,

 

 

Not sure that the Mi16 ones are quite compatible as the tensioners and idler are in different locations.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Nope, no belt covers.

 

I've ummed and erred about it for ages, discussing with others and have decided to accept the risk. My approach is no covers or all covers, i.e. not some of the covers. If something goes in there I want it to ping out.

 

I've seen plenty of pics of cars without them, and surely they can't all be experiencing problems? It has to be a verym very rare occurrence to encounter a problem. If anything, it makes working on it easier.

[welshpug 1,657]

given you have them, and the potential consequences of not using them, its a no brainer for me, especially on an engine that has propensity to ping belts before the original recommended interval, nicely cocooned dry away from the elements by a few bits of nice plastic.

 

 

I do have a cylinder head here off a gti6 as it happens, with 16 bent valves, from a rally car that picked up the tiniest bit of gravel, whilst lapping a race circuit on a trackday of all things.

 

it also bent a rod.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Maybe I will then.

[stu8v 68 1 Cars]

I'd like to also point to the fact non of the rallycross super cars I saw at croft ran cam belt covers.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I don;t run covers on a couple of mine, Just the inner arch shield and that's it, never had a issue in over 15 years

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Everyone has different views. For me there is no advantage gained by NOT running the covers, hence I always run the covers.

[petert 586]

I didn't run covers until recently, when I picked up some gravel. Luckily I cut the engine in time, but the belt started to shred. I'm with Tom. The time that it takes to remove the cover is miniscule to that of fixing bent valves.

[SweetBadger 94]

 

Used to run no covers on mine, result:

 

1 x gravel trap at brands hatch = slipped belt, lots of noise from top end but lucky escape as no bent valves

 

1 x gravel trap at rocking ham = slipped belt, bent several inlet valves, end of track day and top end rebuild.

 

Fit the covers gets my vote!

[Mad Scientist 106]

Plus if the aux belt snaps, it's likely to rip the cambelt off too.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

I had the aux belt snap on my good old blue 205 Mi16, and that aux belt smashed through the cambelt cover and fubared 8 valves anyway

 

But I agree, covers are cheap insurance..

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

It would be very easy to say I'm having bad luck, but I know what I'm experiencing is down to mistakes I'm making.

 

Most on here who've known me some time, know I wear my heart on my sleeve, say it how it is and am honest; I regularly admit errors etc as I feel it's the best course of action.

 

Bottom line is, I'm having trouble. I'm completely baffled in fact!

 

The GTI6 engine is in, completely, i.e. gearbox, exhaust, inlet, driveshafts..the lot. BUT I HAVE NO COMPRESSION AT ALL ON ANY CYLINDER!

 

It takes a lot to admit that on a public forum, as it can simply make one look like a d*ck.

 

Believe me when I say that {A} I've been meticulous in preparing the engine following proper procedures, but also {B} that I know I must've made a mistake or two otherwise it'd work. Currently I can only conclude the following, ridiculous as 1 or 2 might sound:

I) Somehow I've bent valves again, meaning they won't close meaning no compression - HOWEVER: Extremely careful procedure, plus if this had happened, surely it'd only effect 1 cylinder, not all 4?

II) The head gasket/head bolting down hasn't worked - HOWEVER: It's a fairly memorable task torqueing down headbolts, so I know I did it.

III) Amazingly what if I've timed it up 180deg out, i.e. when pistons were mid-way, 1 and 4 were travelling down instead of up and vice-versa - HOWEVER: meticulous procedure, and key-ways all lined up and triple-checked during cambelt fitting.

 

FYI:

When head off: all pistons cleaned, plus deck, head stripped (with all components numbered per original position and refitted as such), head lightly skimmed/refaced and chem washed at Lyndale Engines, plus all valves checked and confirmed as true/straight.

 

 

Engine was heard to make compression when still fitted to donor car (meaning it worked originally), but I knew something was wrong after spinning the engine over in my 205 without sparkplugs (to circulate oil and pump up the evacuated and cleaned lifters), and then spinning it over with plugs in and noticing no difference in sound and rotation speed. I knew there was no compression there on the sound alone.

 

We considered lack of oil pumping up lifters and therefore not opening valves fully, but it's been spun over enough. I'm not seeing any oil pressure on the gauge when cranking at the moment, and am still to check (by removing the oil pressure switch) to see if it's obviously not pumping oil - although there is plenty of oil in the head after cranking today despite a week of standing over Xmas.

 

All valves were lapped into their original seats during the head refresh, and the rebuild process involved pinning the crank (at midway piston position) where the crank locking hole lined up with the hole at the end of the block. I had also drilled and painted markings in the flywheel starter ring-gear and the block to ensure this midway point was super accurate. With that crank (8mm) pin in place, the cams were also locked with their relative 5 and 7 o'clock positions (inlet > exh).

 

I really struggle to think of any way the above could've resulted in 180deg crank to cam mis-phasing, which I think would result in zero compression, as (i) the locking pins lining up and (ii) if they were out of synch, surely there would be valve clash? This is about the only way, other than head not being bolted down at all, that I would get no compression at all. My logic is that the piston (let's just look at 1 on its own), is at TDC effectively twice in each 4-stroke cycle, and that the valve movements in relation to that movement up to TDC is once with all valves closed after the inlets have opened then closed (the compression stroke), and once when the inlets were and are fully closed, but the exhaust valves are open almost until TDC (on the exhaust stroke). If I check and don't find that combination, I won't get any compression.

 

I am desperately trying to avoid removing the head or the entire engine again, but I know there must be a simple error in there somewhere.

 

Can anyone shed any light on this problem?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

And searching shows I'm not unique at being a numpty!

 

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2873822

 

http://www.team-integra.net/forum/11-generation-three/203008-no-compression-all-cyl-belt-ok.html

Edited December 31, 2013 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,657]

I can't think of anything but bent valves really, even with completely empty tappets the valves will open so you will get some compression and certainly with the amount of cranking it should have pumped them enough to start.

 

How, I don't know what with the solid pulley and the markings etc.

 

I dont think there's anything more you can do but take the head off really

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I agree that bent valves (again!) seems logical, and even if we forget the 'how' for now, surely that would {i} make some noise or resistance during assembly and cranking, and {ii} only effect 1 or 2 cylinders, not all 4, and give SOME compression, not none at all?

 

What do you think of the 180deg out on the crank-to-cam relationship?

[welshpug 1,657]

180 out isn't possible with the woodruff keys in position and a solid crank pulley used, I agree that if the valves clashed at any point during assembly you tend to get 2 or 4 bent, with the timing correct then they would no longer clash.

 

if the timing somehow isn't correct that would explain the lack of compression, but I don't know how this would be.

 

 

I remember you mentioning one of your pulleys came from an XU10J4R, I just checked Servicebox and the exhaust hub is the same but not the inlet, how far different I'm not sure, though you said you did check it.

 

For the single bolt later type pulleys RFS hubs are coded blue, RFV are blue exhaust, green inlet.

[dcc 855]

Rich pick up a refurb head from somebody with a good rep.

 

Pointless chasing your tail in my eyes. I know of a good engine / head with mild cams which could be for sale. Can put you in touch with the guy if you like.

[petert 586]

Can you measure the inlet lift at TDC before you take the head off? What if the solid pulley was drilled incorrectly? Until you have a lift at TDC figure I wouldn't go any further.

 

I once had to repair an S16 engine that was a long way out. A vernier pulley was fitted by a Peugeot guru. It was approx 100 deg out. No compression and no bent valves. I set it up correctly and it purred.

Edited January 1, 2014 by petert

[welshpug 1,657]

Its not a solid pulley pete, still adjustable but keyed at a different lca, how different i dont know, but its not a lot.

Edited January 1, 2014 by welshpug

[pugdamo 111 2 Cars]

Did you spin it over by hand before the first attempt at starting?if you did and there was no lock up and when you turned the key there was no noises then im not convinced you have bent valves,agreed something odd is going on but i wouldnt be pulling the head off just yet.Not sure if they are different but is it possible the the cam pulleys are on the wrong cams?

[welshpug 1,657]

Guess you did not read my posts.

 

 

As for bending valves, they're only 6mm stems, and reasonably large heads so doesnt take much to bend them, not like youll hear a ping or anything unless you do it very badly.