[engine_work] I Forgot How Much I Missed It!

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

My old XU10 head gasket; looks no different in any significant way?

 

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3fOYQySFTZA/Un0O9nQ-qdI/AAAAAAAADdU/euUcWXPGBFw/w576-h768-no/IMG_20130718_083709+%2528960x1280%2529.jpg

 

You are correct in your identification of the oilway to the head, see below (with restrictor; I run solid followers)...

 

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vWnLVQvHxQM/Un0PabW_ziI/AAAAAAAADdg/arqXszmux6k/w1024-h768-no/IMG_20130823_165946+%25281280x960%2529.jpg

 

When you took the head off surely you can tell straight away if the head gasket is on wrong?! Like you say, if this is even possible, given the dowels it could only be 180 degrees out couldn't it, and even then it would completely block the feed up and the drains back down? Despite it being a quick check I've never actually tried to put it on wrong to see if it's even possible

[welshpug 1,657]

you certainly had it fitted correctly, the i.d tab always goes at the rear on the flywheel end.

[kyepan 291]

Put up some photos of the damage, that PDF is not very clear. Is it missing half a rod and a piston? what piston damage has occurred? That's some pretty catastrophic engine failure, what do the rid bearings and big ends look like, as it would be worth inspecting them for oil starvation. It looks from the PDF that all of the valves still have their heads, but again it would be good to see them removed and in a line to understand the scope of the damage

 

You're still assuming the lifters were the noise. But it could have been bent valves from the timing, as a DTI wasn't used to time it up, and a valve could have been bent during the timing procedure. This whole oil thing sounds like a red herring. If it didn't quieten I'm sorry but you should have rechecked the timing and tension, then had the cams out to check the lifters. Going off and driving 500 miles and doing a mapping session with a non quiet head was unwise.

 

The belt will have been stretched beyond its elastic limit during the failur, hense being slack and able to be removed.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

(Perhaps specifically aimed at Kyepan (Justin)):

STOP! You kind of have a habit of not reading things and asking about things which have been stated already, and then making huge comments or statements after reading far too much into what you have decided to read.

 

The PDF document/pictures was only a mix of pictures for comparison of XU9J4 head, block and HG holes and alignment etc. None of those head or block pictures were of my engine. Some of the HG pics were mine though. The engine and head are still in the car; I only lifted the head up enough to remove the HG.

 

Currently, and sadly, I have pretty much resigned myself to this being caused by (as Brumster mentioned) a 180deg rotational mis-fitment of the new HG. It's stupid and embarrassing, but it may well be the truth, as every symptom matches, because when fitted the wrong way round, the important 3 oil-ways are either fully or partially blocked.

 

I cannot currently confirm which way the HG was fitted, but the bottom line/reality is that the damage has already happened. I slid the HG out without marking which way it WAS fitted, but even if I had, that wouldn't change anything. You might think this a strange way to approach things, and I kind of wish I had, but it still wouldn't change anything.

 

I know, 99.9% that I checked fitment regarding the HG, with the teardrop-shaped oil return holes at each end of the head aligned with HG-block-head holes. But there's still a slight element of doubt now, plus my friend said he checked it too, although I wasn't aware of that at the time. But again, it changes nothing; the damage is done.

 

I believe I am mature enough to accept that a huge cock-up may have been made by me or my mate in HG fitment. I fitted it once, saw that the dowels limit fitment, re-fitted it, saw that the tear-drop holes weren't matching the head galleries, so re-fitted it so it was all good. Guy says he checked it too, but didn't flip or rotate it. This means the HG was likely on right, meaning a blockage of oil feed via some other means. That said, once the engine is out and the head and block oil-ways can be checked, we won't know what really happened nor what needs to be repaired or replaced.

 

I'm not about to haul a friend over the coals for something like this when I know his intentions were always spot on; I'd rather point the finger at myself.

 

Currently I think it'll be a matter of some new valves, guides, possibly springs and maybe at worst a piston; but I think just some head work will repair what was ultimately the cause of not enough triple-checking during assembly.

 

I believe many currently successful and experienced engine builders have made and make mistakes, even silly ones. So I'm going to be humble enough to accept the error lies with me and my friend and our lack of attention, learn the lesson and move on.

 

***NEXT

 

I have an 82k GTI6 engine (XU10J4RS), which will have a cambelt and water pump replacement and be dropped in shortly with my ITBs and the mapping will be concluded. I'll then, in my own time, investigate and rebuild the XU9J4. Whatever I find will be reported here.

 

If I have any advice or warning to give, it is absolutely ensure all gaskets, wherever fitted, align 110% with all holes before going any further. If it doesn't look right it isn't right. DO NOT PROCEED until it all looks and feel perfect! So with HGs, as Welshpug said, the large end tab goes at the flywheel end to the rear; check and check again!

Edited November 9, 2013 by DrSarty

[dcc 855]

Rich why not plonk the gti6 head on your alloy mi bottom end? Cameron (R.I.P.) had detailed exactly whats needed in gis thread from a few years ago. You get the better head (out of the box) and no issues with the managent due to itbs and management of sorts. You also save yourself 30kgs

 

Personally thats where I'd be heading in your situation. P.s. if you need an alloy thermostat adapter for the gti6 drop me a pm.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Hi Dan - nice to hear from you.

 

Now please treat me like an idiot, what's in it for me doing this, i.e. GTI6 (RS) head onto my XU9J4 block? - (I'd have to do a lot of research in Cam's thread, so please just summarise)

 

Here's my take:

PRO:

> I can leave the block currently fitted in, complete with g'box = minimal work/motoring again more quickly

> I get the advantages of the GTI6 head in terms of oil control

> GTI6 head upgrade advantages without the extra 16kg weight of the iron block

> I can possibly get gains using the 0.7mm MLS HG again with the GTI6 head (?)

 

CON:

> I risk follow-on failure not knowing the condition of the current bottom end

> With OE cams, the GTI6 head probably won't give any gains vs the Mi head (?) - whereas 1998cc vs 1905 cc will albeit minor

 

With the complete RS engine or just the head, I'll still have to have a modified GTI6 exh manifold and downpipe (coming from Miles).

 

If you can sell me on the idea, more pros than cons, I need to know a summary of what's involved, e.g. which head bolts and cambelt set up is used? Will I use an OE HG or my MLS?

 

I look forward to your info.

[welshpug 1,657]

Xu7j4 bolts.

 

Xu5/7/9 hg, your mls is used now, not a re-usable item.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Xu7j4 bolts.

 

Xu5/7/9 hg, your mls is used now, not a re-usable item.

 

With the XU7JP4 bolts, do I need any head bolt spacers as per the XU9 or XU10J4? (I've never touched an RS head, sorry)

 

MadScientist (Pete) IIRC recently said that Sandy said the MLS HG could be re-used - please confirm.

 

Then finally, I need someone/some people please to comment on what the potential gains would be? Why do it?

Edited November 9, 2013 by DrSarty

[dcc 855]

Gains are quite good iirc. Cameron had a set of cams (ph2/3 newmans), standard bottom end (1.9 mi iirc), not sure how much youd actually need to anhle the manifold as obviously the 1.9 mi bottom end is the same height as an 8v, which iirc is 11m shorter than a gti6. This could mean any reangling would not be required as the manifold might well clear as standard. You get vernier pulleys as standard. You get a vacumn take off. You get better oil (head) managment. You can inspect your bottom end easily enough - a few bolts off the sump, check the conrod and mains bearings for oil starvation.

 

You (if i am not mistaken) get a better cr han standard.

 

I think (without checking) that cameron used a ford focus belt with standard 1.9 mi tensioner setup.

 

What you really gain is the knowledge youve tried something against the grain (again )

[welshpug 1,657]

Cameron used a different belt as he disposed of the belt driven water pump.

 

Indeed there needs to be a 22mm spacer under the bolt above the water pump.

 

 

Manifold still does need altering, just not quite as much.

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

If your Mi16 head has run without oil, I would not reuse the bottom end without taking it apart and cleaning it.... *just my 2 cents*

How did the journals of the cams look like?

If you want a RFS head on your Mi16, I would look for another head and just drop in your GTI6 engine complete as is and take some time for the rebuild of the mi16.

 

Iirc, the GTI6 engine has bigger exhaust valves than the XU9J4?? Maybe double check if the pockets in the pistons are large enough...

[petert 586]

? Cameron (R.I.P.)

 

Oh dear. I really should pay more attention.

 

I also wouldn't do anything less than a complete strip down and inspection. The cost/time in doing the bottom end is minimal compared to peace of mind. I once had a warranty claim against me. A ball of aluminium TIG stick got wedged in an oil gallery in the crank. How it got there I still have no idea. But it was definitely mine.

 

If you want wheels, I'd just throw the GTi6 in as is, with throttle bodies and concentrate on rebuilding the XU9J4 properly.

[petert 586]

I've been mulling over this all day. If it were mine, I'd stick the Mi16 head on the GTi6 block. I know it differs from convention, but it's a lot easier to get cheap hp out of an Mi16 head & cams. If I couldn't get a thin gasket, I'd strip and deck the block to optimise CR. You'd get a nice 11+:1 and the 1998cc along with the better rod/stroke ratio, gives a very sweet engine.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks again for the comments, advice and even new ideas.

 

FIRSTLY: (@Pete) When DCC said 'Cameron RIP', he didn't mean he's dead; he means his demise from the forum.

 

My intention was (and probably still is) to pull the Mi out and work on it slow time, i.e. top and bottom end strip, check and rebuild as required. I would drop the GTI6 lump in as-is (new cambelt and pump fitted first) but with the ITBs on. 95%+ sure I'm going this way.

 

GTI6 head onto unknown bottom end is too risky as mentioned.

 

Mi16 head onto GTI6 bottom end is a fresh idea, with benefits as mentioned by Pete; but I think for a quick and painless solution I'll leave the '6 engine as-is for now and drop it in complete (plus the ITBs) on my Mi 'box, which then always leaves room for later for me to drop an Mi head onto the RS iron block, perhaps using the stage II inlet/stage I exhaust combo again...but get it right this time. That would also leave me a GTI6 head for a fresh engine build onto an alloy block next year.

 

Now knowing that Pete, Sandy and probably many others far more mechanically capable than me have at least once in their engine building careers made a frustrating boo-boo has made this cock up easier to deal with.

 

That said, currently, whilst I still favour an incorrect fitment of the HG as the most likely cause of this failure, I will still carefully investigate the Mi engine once it's out for any incriminating evidence, e.g. something somehow blocking the bottom end->head oil feed gallery.

 

So this topic will probably go cold for a bit as I do the swap, and I'll update once it's fitted and running again.

Edited November 10, 2013 by DrSarty

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

The crash site!

 

Cyls 1 & 2:

 

Cyl 3: (no wonder the spark plug wouldn't turn!

 

At the top of the picture, edge of cyl 4 is only tell-tale of where the HG probably blew; it must've blown as there was coolant loss:

 

Piston 3 smashed:

 

The block>head oil supply way with gauze filter appears OK although the gauze was split:

 

Although not clear and conclusive - and I have stated that it's not a definite yet that the HG was fitted 180deg out rotationally (which would mean blocked oil feed and drain holes) - faint witness marks on the deck appear to indicate that the HG WAS fitted the correct way (???):

 

In the last two pictures (my MLS HG onto a spare block), this is what I've meant about the 'teardrop shaped hole', which is in fact an oil return hole at each end of the cylinder head; they are both biased to the rear. I distinctly remember when I first fitted the MLS HG myself the following:

1) First lay up was wrong, because the HG holes at front right and back left weren't large enough to fit over the dowels, I therefore flipped it

2) But after the flip, the teardrop hole was at the front and simply looked wrong as per the below picture:

 

and then correctly fitted (x2). As you can see, it's quite obvious, and I remember spotting this and changing the HG round.

 

3) So I then rotated the HG so the teardops looked right, as shown above, i.e. correctly positioned over the corresponding block holes, as well as the dowels locating into the HG holes.

Therefore this is why I was confident the HG had been fitted correctly.

 

My mate Guy since this has happened, said he checked the HG too but without me knowing, I suspect to ensure it'd been done right. He said he didn't turn or flip it, so currently I believe it was lifted up, checked and replaced as I had placed it. Perhaps the devil lies in this HG fitment somewhere?

 

This final picture (again of other Mi16 parts I have) is the correlation of block>head oil feed holes, which MAY have become blocked by the potentially incorrect HG fitment.

 

So it's currently still a slight mystery, although I've dealt with the frustration and have concluded it was the HG fitment. I wonder if further inspection reveals anything else?

Edited November 10, 2013 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,657]

That marking on the head is quite clear and evident that the combustion gases have been leaking there, that is the corner that I have seen nearly every XU head gasket I have repaired go.

 

Is that liner in cyl 3 cracked on the left also or just a trail of oil?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

See this picture of the block and liners. Doesn't look like a crack:

 

Edited November 10, 2013 by DrSarty

[dcc 855]

looks like a crack!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Ah. For some silly reason I was looking at 12 o'clock, not 'the left' as mentioned by WP, and can see what you mean.

 

I'll check in daylight, but what on earth would cause a liner to crack?

 

This would explain pressures and coolant loss I guess, but still doesn't explain why I MIGHT have a cracked liner anyway.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Well, that is a crack at 9 o'clock on cyl 3 liner. It's from the lip down as far as where the piston is currently sat, i.e. deep.

 

However and regrettably, it only adds more confusion, as I can't see how that can be anything other than resulting damage from other failures, i.e. it probably wasn't the or a cause.

 

Comments?

Edited November 10, 2013 by DrSarty

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

Did you check the protrusion before fitting the cometic hg? Or at the rebuilding? If liner 3 is much higher than 2, it is pressed down more, especially with a thin metal hg.

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

Or deformation of the piston, due to the valve being slammed into it...??

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Engine was freshly rebuilt. Ran 2-3 months on OE HG, then changed for 0.7mm MLS.

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

OE HG are more forgiving than metal ones, especially thin metal HG's.

[petert 586]

No wonder it was down on power. Just lap a new valve in, new liner and away you go.........