[engine_work] I Forgot How Much I Missed It!

[Anthony 1,003]

Looks right to me Rich - it doesn't matter whether you connect the +12v ignition to pin 3 or 4, and the suppressor is optional.

 

Even if you get the two trigger wires around the wrong way the worse that'll happen is that you'll need to swap the HT leads around, but clearly it's better to get it right first time to avoid confusion further down the line.

 

And lets be honest Rich, you loved browsing the Saxo forum - bought you right back to your TSW days

[jackherer 543]

JackHerer, who incidentally provided the Mi16 gearbox going in the car.

 

From my personal stash no less...

 

(I'm going to keep reminding you of that )

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Quick update - we're nearly ready to install; most prep work has been done. Gearbox cleaned (and sprayed ), with D6A (lightweight) starter motor test fitted:

 

 

The Mi16 gearbox has a long (longer than a 205) and angled actuator arm. This was remodelled (this is the second time I've done this), with 2 large ring spanners to bend it straight, a new hole drilled 90mm centre separated from the pivot, a new ball joint fitted and the excess arm cut off. My collection of clutch friction plates: (left to right - Dunno / Valeo OE / Techniclutch fast road)

 

I wasn't too impressed with the Techniclutch in Evo II; it just didn't feel right. I'm going to give it another go or revert to an OE Mi16 Valeo clutch. It's surprising how different these 3 plates are, with various combinations of rivet points and single or double springs. The Techni job has double springs in all 4 locations and has the same central hub/collar dimensions as the Valeo. We'll see how it goes.

 

Here's the engine, with oil breather set up simplified further, exhaust manifold fitted and sealed (but with the temporary bolts to be replaced 1-by-1 by OE studs and nuts soon), throttle bodies now only awaiting the ITG filter, the freshly cleaned GTI6 injectors (courtesy of MadProfessor) and an inline FPR to be fitted. She's held oil for 2 weeks now without a drip, so all seems sealed up and turning the key is not far away.

 

Now before I get any grief, the ITBs and trumpets are deliberately short and that length. I predict comments/advise/abuse, but there is method in my madness, plus I think a bit of experimentation is a good thing.

 

I am aiming for a high-revving Mi that peaks at ~6.5-6.6k RPM; these short inlet runners should be optimised for this, which no doubt means a potentially 'flat' engine which needs to be ragged to bring it to life. According to this online 'velocity stack' (trumpet) calculator, and with reference to the attached PDF, Peter's 271 duration cam, with 4cm dia inlet runners, on 4th wave induction peaking at 6.6k RPM requires an inlet tract length (trumpet/velocity stack mouth to back of inlet valve) of just under 28cm; this is what I have.

Velocity-of-Sound Intake Runner Length Calculator6600 (280mm).pdf

Edited May 21, 2012 by DrSarty

[jackherer 543]

That is the cleanest that gearbox has been in at least 12 years! Don't forget the speedo drive bolts need to be tightened, I only put them in a few threads by hand and I can see at least one of them is still like it.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Will do - it's on my list. I left it undone so fitting the driveshaft oil seals would be as easy as possible.

[kyepan 291]

Check out dave walkers emerald blog post about variable length trumpets, it's very interesting, and has some pretty graphs where the torque on a race engine gets moved around to look like a tractor.

 

it's also worth looking at the outer radius of the bell mouths, i think that also affects airflow. Incidentally what are the bell mouths from?. and is this partially to do with not cutting the slam panel? fitting filter in?

 

cheers

 

J

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Hi Justin:

 

The mouths of the velocity stacks are from a 'bike engine, an Aprillia (sp?) in fact with a monstrous 16v 1.3 engine.

 

Motorbike design/components work as you know, tried and tested, and I am taking a fairly safe gamble that Aprillia's experts have designed these with purpose in mind. For example, they have these small holes around the flare, which I guess serve a purpose.

 

I'll look up the variable tract length article, although we know variable inlets work, as they are employed on several engines, including the S16 (2.0 Mi16), the VW R32 (a later version) and the Veyron.

 

I can change my trumpets/stacks easily with my set up, as I've designed it that way. Evo II doesn't have a slam panel anyway, so I can play with inlet runner length until the ITG filter hits the down slope of the bonnet.

 

In my research (which includes Wikipedia ) it seems there is speculation as to whether the outer flare or radius has any/large effect. The key I think is to just not have a bare, parallel sided opening.

Edited May 21, 2012 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,657]

one thing to note with the gearbox mounting stud Rich, it needs to be the 205 one (which it looks to be), also should have a large washer.

 

 

[welshpug 1,657]

Just quickly stuck the data for my camshafts and inlet into the calculator and I can get 3rd wave at 380mm using 6600 peak, which means only a 40mm long trumpet, that's for Newmans PH2's advertised as 264's on a 40mm bore gti6 inlet cut down to accept GSXR 42mm bodies.

Edited May 21, 2012 by welshpug

[kyepan 291]

Whats the distance from the back of the valve to the end of the port on an mi , anyone?

 

Whats the distance from the back of the valve to the end of the port on an mi , anyone?

[MrG 3]

Hi Rich, good to hear from you again, good to see you're giving the 205 some attention again, if you're down this way in the future drop by.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Just about crunch time, i.e. will it start?

 

Few progress pics below, and although I'm sure others have done it too, I'm really quite chuffed I managed to put the engine and gearbox in, separately, by myself.

 

 

All I need now is the HT leads, a bit of battery box/wire upgradings, a back box fitted and that infamous first turn of the key...

 

Issues I came up against were choice of re-angled exhaust manifold instead of standard that would've been better, difficulties with gear rods clashing, having to extend TPSe wires and change coil wiring to suit single instead of individual coils (I used to use GM LS2 truck coils) and making bracket to mount coil pack on strut brace.

 

P.S. The choc block is only a temporary measure, as I need the flexibility to change the wires round if I didn't configure the new TPSe correctly....plus I ran out of solder and heat shrink.

Edited June 5, 2012 by DrSarty

[GLPoomobile 958]

Sweet. I assume you've recovered from our rimming session by now

 

Really looking forward to seeing how this one goes. I've been thinking that I may follow your lead and invest in a set of those bodies and your manifold for future use (but by the time I get it back on the road ITBs will probably be as old hat as carbs are now!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Install complete; all issues resolved...and IT RUNS!

 

It seems to be running very rich, based on exhaust smell and spark plug darkening, but this is perhaps expected as it's a generic Mi16 base map I believe which isn't expecting GTI6 injectors. Fuel pressure may be a tad over 3bar based on the adjustable FPR I fitted, and I may need to swap crank position and/or ECU coolant temp sensors to see if one or both are dodgy and giving funny signals. I'm sure it's not far off though.

 

It's now time to get it to Emerald and have it mapped. The throttle body bark is there, trust me.

[maturin23 10]

Excellent news.

 

I'm pretty sure that my next step (after getting it back from Kieran after all the welding/spraying/nice shiny new lights) will be ditching the standard fuelling set up and moving to ITBs plus cams/verniers.

[welshpug 1,657]

22% larger injectors than standard Mi16

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Just got the ECU plugged in and looked at the readings; TPSe needed calibrating as it was reading 11% open when it was closed. Also, as suspected, the ECU coolant temp sensor seemed to be dodgy as it was reading 80degC on a 'cold' engine.

 

I calibrated the TPSe (ensuring I got 0-100% cleanly), and unplugged the coolant temp plug and plugged it into another spare sender which gave a reading in air of 14degC, which is the same as the IAT sensor is showing. I'll drop this other sender whilst connected into a cup of just boiled water to see if it behaves with heat. If it's good, I'll swap the senders over and bin the iffy one and see how she goes.

 

As WP said, 22% bigger injectors will likely still mean it runs rough on a rich mixture, and I'm also just about to do a spark, injector and compression test to see if everything else is in order.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

First drive of a 205 in..........at least 3 years!!!! I can't believe it's been that long.

 

I had to go to Emerald today unfortunately withOUT my throttle bodies, despite them going through quite some serious changes since I got back from East Timor (near Australia) at 6am last Wednesday morning.

 

I have grafted on the car, which has sat idle for over 3 years as stated (which I still can't believe I'm saying), every day and night since returning to the UK.

 

I injured myself, got frustrated (almost to despair), spent heaps of wonga on meaningless stuff without noticing it, and exhausted myself to the point of thinking I should sack it and buy a new car.

 

But, all came good in the end, and my freshly built engine on a GTI6 inlet manifold and chav boy Halfrauds chrome cone filter made 165bhp and 135lbft of torque at Emerald today with conservative mapping due to an engine that's never really been run. It's plenty anyway.

 

However, regardless of not spectacular figures - which should increase by 8-10bhp allegedly as the engine beds in - I am a beaming, smiling, happy person with an Mi 205 that comes alive at 4.5k and flies like a rocket. Add to that all of my suspension and chassis mods (plus the Xsara rack and PAS), a beautifully sunny day, an amazing single throttle body induction hammer and a sunroof (and only about 800kg weight), simply put...I've, had the time of my life.

 

and feel the love!

 

205s forever.

 

 

P.S. Game plan is to return to Emerald in 2-3 months with my finished ITBs and a 4-2-1 manifold (probably from Miles), knock on the door of 200bhp (ATF) and call it a day.

 

P.P.S. Having read Kyepan's latest update and his beaming at 185bhp ATW, I can only say that there must be some silly quick cars out there, and that somehow I had become rather complacement and used to my 202bhp ATW when I had the 2.2 engine. Surprising though how engines, like people, have different charateristics, regardless of quantitative things like degrees or family heritage; it's how they make you feel that counts.

Edited July 30, 2013 by DrSarty

[dcc 855]

[petert 586]

Nice work. Glad to hear it all worked out ok.

[kyepan 291]

glad to hear it's back together, suggest you check my latest post before deciding on your manifold and body's setup. Do you have a graph from emerald?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I'll scan and post it soon.

 

I'm already a convert to the Sandy Brown, Colin Satchell, John Reid (sp?), Mark Shillaber et al group (@Kyepan), producing more tractable power. The secret - as with anything - is 'what's the application?'. For a more driveable car, you want to maximise the accessibility to power, i.e. more of it across more of the rev range, aka 'area under the graph/curve'. In fact that's probably not such a bad approach for a track/competition car too, but I guess it'll be more noticable on a road car, as you have other things to focus on rather than trying to stay in the power band.

 

I'm also committed to experimenting, and buidling something myself; there's nothing wrong with a little experimentation.

 

Therefore when the time comes, I'll review my choice of 4-2-1 manifolds (or anything else which delivers what I'm after), but I'll stick with my own ITB design which is based on a GTI6 inlet, and experiment with trumpet lengths at Emerald in a few months' time. I will be running staged injectors.

 

As for the car/power delivery now, it basically an Mi16, perhaps with a less than desirable 'hole' in the torque curve between 2-3.5k. However at 4-4.5 it picks up drastically, which gives that surge/'on cam' experience, which is good fun.

 

For now, I'm just happy to be back in the UK, to be near my son, and to have resurrected (sp?) my Evo II chassis so I can enjoy the 205 experience again.

 

Next job is to enjoy it and put my special, removable sound system in.

Edited August 1, 2013 by DrSarty

[kyepan 291]

from the basic understanding i have, there is more to it than just tract length..but i don't actually understand it enough to say any more than that.

 

And another thing, what the hell happened to the 2.2, there was much rejoicing when it made lots of power, then all of a sudden nothing, did the copper head gasket expire or what? Autopsy needed perhaps! open the kimono richard.... no one will laugh.

 

J

[dcc 855]

from memory it was mentioned that the rings on one piston gave out?

[kyepan 291]

why didn't it get rebuilt?