Economical 205S - Lpg Vs Hdi

[Russ_T 1]

Hello,

 

I did try a search to start off with, but the search feature here isn't great :-)

 

I bought a DTurbo for economy, and since falling in love with it thought I could do with a GTi body with an engine conversion, probably a 2.0HDi or now considering the 1.6 ...

 

And then I bumped into people who did LPG conversions to MX5s, they seem happy enough.

 

What about a 205 with lpg. I did some googling and found an Mi16 engine lpg conversion 205 which went ok.

 

Has anyone done it here please? I need to sit down and work out the economys to see if it's a £ sound idea or not first. Then there is the extra weight ...

 

Cheers

[johnnyboy666 195 1 Cars]

have you considered a 1.1?

[Russ_T 1]

Nah, less power than my 1.8DTurbo and no better mpg, also my commute has a fair few hills so would end up ranting it around. No point going backwards

[Anthony 1,003]

How many miles per year are you doing?

 

Quick back of a post-it calculation suggests that assuming 35mpg (petrol) and around £1500 for the LPG installation, you're looking at a break even point of around 20-25k miles. Up until that point, you're out of pocket and haven't saved a penny, so it makes no sense at all unless you're doing significant mileage and you're planning on keeping the 205 for (considerably) longer than that.

 

Remember the downsides to LPG, of which there are several.

 

HDi conversion potentially makes more sense to me given the additional benefits over the older TD engine, but only if you can do the conversion yourself - if you can't, then the numbers just won't add up as you'll be paying so much for the conversion/installation in the first place. I've not done one, but I would imagine an early 2.0 HDi conversion to be fairly straight forward if somewhat involved, whereas a later one or a newer HDi like the 1.4 or 1.6 to be a headache, the difference being that later cars used multiplex wiring which isn't easily usable in a 205.

 

Judging from the 306 TD and HDi models I've owned, I'd guess the difference in economy will be round 15-20%. Noticeable certainly, but not that dramatic in terms of money unless you're doing significant mileage - something in the region of about 2p/mile

 

Personally I'd work out the numbers as I suspect you'll come to the come to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense, especially when you've already got a comparatively economical car.

[RossD 44]

I get an average 58 - 60mpg from my Xsara Hdi on my commute, and thats the 2.0 110bhp model. I imagine a 205 being lighter would be slightly more.... (But probably less aerodynamic!)

 

HDi conversion is easier than some think, easiest is getting a loom and ECU from a pre-mux car, i.e pre-2001 or so, but it varied by model. Look for the "single plug" ECU.

[petert 587]

Given it's easy to get 40+mpg out of a 1.9L 16V, why would you bother with LPG or Dieseesel. The only true way to compare these things is $/mile. With current pricing in Australia of 80c/L for LPG, and $1.50/L for both diesel and petrol, it's not worth the effort. Especially when you consider the petrol 16V grin factor.

[Anthony 1,003]

I was about to point out how much more expensive fuel is over here Peter, but having just checked the exchange rate, it's not actually that bad given the strength of AUD (or rather, the weakness of GBP) these days - it was £1 = $2.5 AUD a few years back, and now it's down to around £1 = $1.5 AUD

 

Mind you, even at that rate, it still makes fuel over here the equivalent of about $2.10 AUD/litre (or putting it another way to make the UK crowd envious, it's £1/litre down under)

[Russ_T 1]

You can get 40+mpg from a petrol? I was looking at google and it claimed more like 30-32mpg? LPG I guess gives you 90% of the efficiency of petrol at around 55% of the fuel price, so 30mpg petrol works out 49mpg if it were lpg. So I thought I could have great performance (1.9Gti/Mi16/GTi-6) and still get 50mpg.

 

I do about 13k miles across country roads, and love my DTurbo for it. I would spend some money on it, but I want to lower it and need a GTi shell really for the bigger rear arches, long term I want 309 width and a nice stance.

 

I'm looking for a long term car that is cheap to run and keep on the road, so I can have a silly sports car for weekends.

 

I figure a HDi in a 205 (not sure on the COED but I don't imagine it's too bad being very narrow, I know the screen is steep) would see 60+mpg and still provide lots of performance. A Yaris though is the same weight as a 205 Rallye so maybe I should buy a Yaris and save some money on road tax A 70mpg car will cost me £6k or be very slow, so a 205 with the right engine seems both the best choice for fun AND economy.

 

I've done a fair amount of research on the 1.6HDI and the extra complication doesn't seem worth it. I had hoped it would be much lighter the the DW10 but I think it might be too fragile/hard to convert to be worth it.

 

And discuss!

[welshpug 1,657]

I'm regularly getting mid 30's from an old 8 valver running MP3.1, and certainly not driving it "slow" and not much steady speed as its all stop start town plus dual carriageway and roundabouts.

 

I've had near 40 from it a few years ago, but haven't had it on a long run recently to see how its behaving since fitting a cam and manifold, and a lambda.

[Russ_T 1]

Hi,

 

Yeah mid 30s aren't good enough for me really for this journey. I could drive my other car and get nearly 30 if I took it easy so could save money and go back to one car.

 

I think a 2.0ltr HDI is the way forward, just a shame as I had hoped a crazy petrol with lpg could be a winner

 

Also if I can sort the gear/diff ratio out I'm expecting 60+mpg ...

 

BTW for anyone interested I'm following these threads

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=128128&st=0 <- Strictly Dervs project, most of my inspiration

 

http://www.tdocuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=4991&hilit=uberderv+ii+project <- A HDI version, not on the road yet. HDIs in other cars are +10mpg hence why I fancy it.

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

I owned 205 GTI 1.9 8v on lpg as daily, next to the kids carrier.

It was an old-skool lpg install without lambda.

 

The tank was placed just after the front seat and loading floor iso back seats (kind of van).

It ran ok and cheap but could not keep up with a petrol one.

Nowadays I have a 206 1.6 16v on lpg G3 as well as daily drive to work and is as fast the 205.

 

I would not spend 1500 quid to convert one, but if you can find a converted one, it's cheap to drive

 

The 1.8 16v engine (306/406) seems to work well on lpg as well and might be easier to find with lpg installation included.

Edited April 20, 2012 by wicked

[m_attt 31 1 Cars]

i use a 205 Dturbo as my daily, on long runs it used to get 63mpg, now ive turned up the boost/fuel thats down to 57mpg.

 

get around 50mpg around town.

[RossD 44]

The good thing about the HDi is the extra performance AND extra MPG over the older XUDT engine....

Its a conversion I have been long thinking about, but just cant bring myself to do!

[allye 530 3 Cars]

but just cant bring myself to do!

 

Slip into your size 10's,do plenty of reading and go in nuts deep and just do it.

[Anthony 1,003]

What 2.0 HDi 110 variants are there that doesn't use multiplex wiring/ECU? Xantia possibly?

 

Non-multiplex 90's aren't an issue but most of the donors for 110's seem to be multiplex.

[Russ_T 1]

I did manage to research that, but I cannot remember what I came up with.

 

I thought the 110 is just a 90 with an intercooler and the ECU controls the turbo? That maybe really wrong, but I guess you could 110 an 90 with right ecu/cooler? Either way DW10 TD and DW10 ATED (http://www.peugeot206cc.co.uk/repair-206/206/info/gb/b1bbm2k3.htm)

 

Looking at DW10 engines on ebay they go from RHS to RHY and RHZ configurations. The ATED is an RHZ engine.

 

The engines are a good price though! Definitely should do it. I guess you'd also want the turbo and gearbox to go with it, along with just about all the ancilleries and see what you don't use come the end.

[Weser 30]

I agree with wicked. I brought the mrs an lpg converted Rav4 as she wanted one. The MPG benifits are are great but the performance is terrible slower than when its running on petrol. Its very noticable in that slow beast I dread to think what it would be like is a gti. You dont get the same power from the LPG as you do with petrol when it burns. I also have found that it runs quite lumpy/lean when its on low revs and splutters a bit. It might just need setting up. Also the tank is annoyingly small. However if you can find one already converted its well worth it as its instant saving. The Mrs likes it so it cant be bad.

[Anthony 1,003]

What type of LPG kit did it have fitted, as they are not all created equally!

 

You really need a proper multi-point injection setup and someone that knows what they're doing to set it up - the older mixer ring types are utterly useless by comparison, and clearly if the LPG isn't properly setup then it is never going to fuel properly either. Certainly I've found that the newer multi-point systems are pretty good and there isn't really any noticeable difference between petrol and LPG running, at least on the couple of lazy V6 4x4's I've driven with that setup - I would go as far as to say that without looking at the indicator you couldn't tell which fuel it was using at the time.

[Weser 30]

I can't remember the manufacturer of the kit off the top of my head. However I think it is multipoint injection. It certainly is a pretty indepth conversion. I think it needs a service by someone that knows what they are doing to make sure it is all hunky dory. You can definitely tell when its running on gas. However it is only a 2ltr 4 cylinder. As previously said however you cant knock the MPG figures.

[RossD 44]

The 110bhp HDi was actually released before the 90bhp, back in early 1998, with the pre-facelift 406 and Xantia getting it first. The 90bhp came along a bit later, in the facelift 406, Xantia, Xsara etc etc.

 

Same basic engine - They used to use different cranks, but parts list now shows same cranks for both engines, so probably just Pug\Cit doing some rationalisation with spares. Becasue they are the same, it doesnt really matter which one you get. Turbo is slightly different on the 110, in that its controlled by the ECU, but again essentially its the same KKK turbo as the 90, just a different actuator.

 

The 110's are very easy to remap and get some nice gains from. I've been playing with the ECU on the Xsara on and off for a few years, can get an easily reliable 140bhp from it, or up to 155 or so if you dont mind smoke and your injectors are up to it. Issues are clutches and gearboxes, clutches will slip with much more than standard outputs unless they are almost new and the gearbox life is going to be somewhat limited on a car with a big power remap. The PSA literature I have seen reckons the BE4 box is limited to about 180lb/ft before the lifespan is going to be limited (And I'm talking in OE terms here, where a standard BE4 may last 200k miles or so) and this is confirmed by the cars they fit it too. You wont find a BE4 fitted to a car with any more than about 180lb/ft from the factory....

 

The only reason I cant bring myself to put it in a 205 is because I like my TB'd 1.6 far too much, a diesel would just make it..... boring! 7250rpm vs 4000rpm..... hmmmm! The economy gains aren't to be sniffed at mind you. My Xsara is currently at 167,000 miles and still getting 58mpg average. It has been utterly reliable (touchwood), I also know of many that are over 200k miles, so the engines themselves are preety much indestructable.

Edited May 3, 2012 by RossD

[Anthony 1,003]

Interesting - I didn't realise that the 90's and 110's were so similar.

 

Would I be right in assuming that a 90 with an intercooler and remap would give similar results/longeivity to a remapped 110 then?

 

Long story short, the engine in my 306 is slowly but surely getting more gutless and increasingly smokey, and given that it's got over 210k on the clock it seems more sensible replacing it with a newer, lower mileage engine than replacing injectors and whatever else is tired on my one. Given that the car is crying out for more power, I'd been looking at going down the 110 route as a start point, but if you reckon a 90 is just as good a place to start from, that makes life much more straight forward.

 

</slight thread hijack>

[Russ_T 1]

So from that I take it the 110s are going to have the multiplex wiring?

 

I don't mind where I start, but 110 would make more sense as I've got a bit more to start with before I start worrying about remaps etc.

 

The other thing is what gearbox to go with it, I feel even with my DTurbo the current box is too short for any economy (I get about 40-45mpg it seems), I guess trying to buy an engine with box would be the way forward.

 

I keep meaning to post something along these lines over at TDOCUK, I have a reasonable idea of what's involved from the Uberderv II thread (www.tdocuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=4991), but I'd like to nail specifically what parts to start collecting for when I find the right shell.

 

Gotta see 60mpg in a 205 surely? This combo I'd wup quite a few economical little cars at the lights surely

[welshpug 1,657]

205 DTurbo box is quite amusingly short I believe, 3k rpm in a 306 or 405 on the 1.9 DT engine is 80 mph give or take a few, that's just about peak boost+torque on a standard configuration, the 306 HDI box is a little longer which goes a little way to explaining the big difference in economy between the two engines other than simply the vast advancements in fuelling technology.

[allye 530 3 Cars]

I used to get over 60mpg out of my 309 on a run If you want long gears stick a 6speed in it

[welshpug 1,657]

you haven't got a turbo

 

6 speeder will be pretty damn short....