Xu9J4 Oil Starvation Prevention (Never Heard That Before?!)

[Sandy 191]

Regular EW10 is not VCT, only the 180 and 2.2 EW12

[Kitch 4]

Some interesting replies, cheers! I won't go through and answer them all individually but I'll summise instead....

 

It's the XU9J4 I'd want. I don't doubt the XU10's or EW10's are a better engine - they must be given the step forwards in design and research. But I like the XU9J4, and that's the one I'd want to use.

 

I have it on authority (though how good I couldn't tell you) that the XU9J4 weighs in at 115kg wet, with vital components (like inlet) but no ancillaries (like alternator). The car we build is designed to take a Pinto or Zetec, the weigh of which hangs around 125-135kg DRY!

K-series take the game to another level.....78kgs. Even with a Type 9 box they come in at 115kg, same as the Mi16 without a gearbox! K-series would also be easy to fit into the chassis as dimensionally it's pretty similar to a Pinto (though the head flows the other way around).

 

Basically I'm not after massive power. 160bhp in 550kg is plenty thanks! You can't go above 80mph in them anyway as everything just goes blurry with the wind and buffeting!

 

If I were to look at other engines than the Mi that were just better or easier to fit, I don't think I'd go to the trouble of an EW10. I've got parts that I've researched and located that allow the XU9J4 to be used now - I could build the chassis, fit a normal sump and fire it up. I just wouldn't dare drive it!

My concern is - is it going to be a lost cause with the oil issues? I gather a dry sump (I don't know alot about them) is pretty much rock solid - it's just the cost to get around. I don't really want to experiment with other sumps either (bearings and crank regrinds cost money!) so wondered if anyone had already done this research.

 

I'm basically at the point where if I want to put an Mi16 in, I have to build the chassis differently to if I were to fit a K-series, which doesn't require an altered chassis or transmission tunnel. So although I'm not going to fit an engine yet, I have to commit to one. I love the challenge of the Mi16 - it's just the challenge is there for a reason!

[Cameron 16]

Fit an Mi16 with an XU10 sump and oil pump, that should help you out a bit.

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

Have look at PeterT's site:

http://www.taylor-eng.com/sump/wetsump.htm

 

I would make a custom baffle on the 'front' side, for the braking. Corners will be ok I think..

[Baz 421]

:bandwagon: Mi's are f*cking crap, why would you bother with the ancient old s*it :bandwagon:

 

This is getting very boring, especially from people who have no doubt never given them more than a passing thought's chance.

 

Mi16's have been mounted longitudinally in Escorts and kit-cars successfully (to a point) in the past.

 

A 205 is capable of alot more than a G whilst cornering, i've done it, indicated anyway.

 

I really don't think the whole Mi oil starvation issues are as bad as some make out, i've had many and know of many more that when looked after properly and not abused old pieces of s*it with sludged up oilways, blocked oil pump pickups and run low on oil with insufficient tolerances on bearings have been absolutely fine for many track miles, even on semi slicks.

 

There's a fair few on here that will agree but have probably got bored of these stupid discussions long before me.

 

I don't care what anyone says, i'm not saying it isn't an issue, it's just not as much as you all seem to make out. The Xu9J4 is a superb engine in many ways, especially compared to later ones, for one it was designed initially as a race engine, hence the head out flows the RS.

 

Stop bashing the Mi so much please, it is still the definitive engine so-suited to the 205 that it was almost solely responsible for putting the 205 GTi on many's map and probably had a hand in keeping many alive a few years ago.

 

GTi6's are heavy, weak pieces of crap with no character by comparison, in my opinion.

 

Good luck Kitch & keep at it, please keep us informed!

[kyepan 291]

You know, you've got me thinking Baz, on my engine, which has all of the bits i mentioned in my previous post (apart from tapped head and windage tray) my needle stays rock solid under sustained load, it takes about 8-10 seconds of continuous left hand turn for the needle to even budge, and then it only moves very slowly. Versus the old engine, that had a baffled sump, and extended pickup, that would nose dive if showed anything vaguely left hand, even a friend who got in the car, who was left handed caused the needle to dip.

 

A question, how much of the engine inclination is causing oil not to return from the head? traditionally people tap the rear of the head to drain where it pools there. But if the head is vertical, it would change the draining behaviour, perhaps helping reduce starvation.

 

The principles of the remedies are clear:

1. Make sure more oil is there, ie deeper and not moving about as much
   
2. Get more oil down from the head and stop it sitting up there.
   

 

Question is, where to put the drain in a vertically mounted engine that would help it drain?

 

Cheers

J

[Kitch 4]

Some interesting replies worth thinking about.

 

It's worth pointing out that I've been a victim of the oil starvation myself in my BX. I very long left hand bend with sustained high revs killed it. To my knowledge, the issue was that the oil pump was pumping all the oil away quicker than it was draining back. My result was a bent crankshaft, though it was luckily salvagable and continues in service today. I tell myself that the fact it got so hot it warped and then cooled down again has toughened it. Or something.

 

I think I've reached a conclusion.....provided I've got enough clearance (as it's a fairly tall engine) I think I might have a go at just buying some cheap thrashed motors, then thoroughly clean them internally and take some measures to try and prevent the issues. My own car was running Castrol RS 10w60, something I was recommended. Looking back, that's a really thick oil and I wonder if the issue would have arisen with regular 10w40.

So I'm thinking the best budget sump available (is that XU10J4RS??) with a deeper pickup to start with. My only issue is clearance as the top of the engine is pretty close to the bonnet.

 

If I'm right in thinking, my issue would be in braking if the engine was mounted north to south. So assuming I always dipped the clutch when braking hard, in theory I could fit an un-modified engine?

So with that in mind, to allow me to brake hard without lunching my engine and still driving properly, I need to find a way to keep the oil at the pickup.

 

Are any of the sumps I could try tin, rather than alloy (because I could modify tin sumps and add extra capacity to the sides) and could I do away with the spacer plate? It's been a while since I stripped one down, but I can't remember the function of that spacer exactly.

 

Cheers guys.

[welshpug 1,657]

S16 sump is usually tin and full depth, so will add a little more capacity if used with the XU9 spacer/block stiffener.

 

They do have a baffle in them, though the XU9 don't have one on the oil pump like the later XU10 engines do.

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

Agree with Baz... Mi16 were gift from above for the 205, but some weird french engineers put them in the wrong car...

Gti-6's are faster, smoother, etc, but lack the character of a Mi..

 

 

Regarding the oil trapped in the head; S16 has similar head but does not suffer from starvation? How come?

Edited April 3, 2012 by wicked

[welshpug 1,657]

S16 certainly still does suffer from oil issues.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Except mine <cough> but I'm told that's because I don't drive fast enough

[Anthony 1,003]

You know, you've got me thinking Baz, on my engine, which has all of the bits i mentioned in my previous post (apart from tapped head and windage tray) my needle stays rock solid under sustained load, it takes about 8-10 seconds of continuous left hand turn for the needle to even budge, and then it only moves very slowly. Versus the old engine, that had a baffled sump, and extended pickup, that would nose dive if showed anything vaguely left hand, even a friend who got in the car, who was left handed caused the needle to dip.

Unless you've got a meaningful oil pressure gauge and preferably a warning light that comes on before the engine borks itself, you really don't know what's going on. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the standard oil pressure guessometer is completely useless as it reacts about as quickly as the UN.

 

Fit a proper mechanical gauge and you'll be shocked at what the oil pressure is actually doing whilst the standard gauge is sat there giving the impression that everything is just fine. Even on the road, you'll find the needle wagging around like an excitable puppies tail.

 

That said, I've little doubt that a tired engine exacerbates the issue.

 

If I'm right in thinking, my issue would be in braking if the engine was mounted north to south. So assuming I always dipped the clutch when braking hard, in theory I could fit an un-modified engine?

So with that in mind, to allow me to brake hard without lunching my engine and still driving properly, I need to find a way to keep the oil at the pickup.

 

Are any of the sumps I could try tin, rather than alloy (because I could modify tin sumps and add extra capacity to the sides) and could I do away with the spacer plate? It's been a while since I stripped one down, but I can't remember the function of that spacer exactly.

Are you honestly suggesting that you're going to dip the clutch every time you want to brake hard? Sorry, but if you're that worried about the risk of oil starvation, then choose a different engine or spend the money properly sorting the problem - driving the car in that manner, constantly worrying about the engine longevity, WILL ruin the experience for you.

 

As for sumps, typically you'll find that XU10's with aircon have an alloy sump, whereas XU10's without aircon have a tin sump - not a hard and fast rule, but generally seems to be the case especially on earlier models like XSi and S16's. If you get a tin sump, try to get one with the metal baffle inside, as the plastic one tends to fall apart.

 

Regarding the oil trapped in the head; S16 has similar head but does not suffer from starvation? How come?

As said, an S16 does also suffer, just not as badly - which makes sense, as it has all the later oil control features that people retrofit to 1.9's to try and improve things. Specifically, the baffled sump/pump, chain guard, windage tray, and the higher pressure/flow oil pump.

 

GTi-6 appears to be dramatically better in terms of oil control.

[welshpug 1,657]

Buy Cameron's hybrid engine?

[Kitch 4]

Are you honestly suggesting that you're going to dip the clutch every time you want to brake hard? Sorry, but if you're that worried about the risk of oil starvation, then choose a different engine or spend the money properly sorting the problem - driving the car in that manner, constantly worrying about the engine longevity, WILL ruin the experience for you.

 

No I'm not honestly suggesting that. As I said the following paragraph, if I want to drive the car properly I need to find a proper cure.

[Kitch 4]

As for sumps, typically you'll find that XU10's with aircon have an alloy sump, whereas XU10's without aircon have a tin sump - not a hard and fast rule, but generally seems to be the case especially on earlier models like XSi and S16's. If you get a tin sump, try to get one with the metal baffle inside, as the plastic one tends to fall apart.

 

Useful info, thanks. I think I'm going to try and relocate the oil pickup at this stage, and possibly fit one with its own baffle.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Kitch

[Kitch 4]

Buy Cameron's hybrid engine?

 

Is that the one that's £900? I'm halfway to a dry sump and already have a spare Mi16 sat around so there's not much point from my POV on that one. Looks great though.....wonder if I should put it in my BX lol!

[madaxgt 0]

Been a while since i looked at my old mi engine. But as the common problem is oil trapped up in the head, you can solve it 2 ways. Get it down quicker or let less up there.

 

the nissan rb26 engine has similarish problems with oil being trapped up in the head and common practice on that head is to modify the oil drains from the head to allow the oil down easier That maybe possible but its been ages since i looked at my mi in any detail. The other option is to fit a restrictor to the pressurised feed supply to the head. The rb26 runs solid lifters and the mi runs hydraulics so you need to be very careful not to put in too much of a restriction. Then theres the external drain option this is also done on the nissan engine but of dubious benefit in that application, i can see it working on the mi better due to its slant.

 

As baz etc said having it in good condition/clean will make a big difference and with increased oil volume and decent baffling I cant see it not being solvable its all fairly simple stuff.

[GLPoomobile 958]

There's a fair few on here that will agree but have probably got bored of these stupid discussions long before me.

 

I'm speaking purely as an interested observer, but for me, the reason that these discussions have become boring is that there's been so much talk over the years about possible cures, but I don't think anyone has ever actually gone public with any results having implemented any suggestions.

 

We know that the common things like the extended pickups and baffled sumps etc can help to an extent, but what about the other ideas bandied about over the years? Has anyone tried anything and had success or failure? Why is it not talked about? I recall a couple of years ago some very confident talk of using a certain combination of pistons, rods and pins etc, and then everything went quiet. And it was just by chance that one day someone mentioned in a topic that the the theory had been tested and had been a failure.

 

So we've had years of theories that have amounted to little, and that's why I find it boring. With the wealth of engineering expertise within our community, why are people still talking about this instead of actually implementing these ideas?

Edited April 3, 2012 by GLPoomobile

[kyepan 291]

By the sounds of it the reason very few people solve it definitively is down to the lack of accurate data on the actual oil pressure. Many people, myself included manage to fit all of the supposed improvements but then rely on the normal gauge.. so we get no real hard results. I could fit a gauge in the not to distant future and report back.

[kyepan 291]

Good point by the way

[Baz 421]

I'm also going to add; over-revving, especially on down-changes & tilted examples, to my previous list of stupid reasons why people claim these engines are 'sh!t'.

 

Mechanical gauges do actually add a bit more reliability to inform you of what's going on, but in my experience although obviously much quicker to react as you can watch the needle dicking around all over the place at times, aren't far different to what the standard gauge is doing, generally, when all is well, but as said, the standard gauge is barely reliable, even when all seems good, so a mechanical one, with perhaps a rather large warning light set to 20psi or so might be a good idea, as many have suggested in the past.

 

The only times i've ever seen a stop light come on is from either when oil's been low, on a tilted engine or when someone's just gone into a left-right kinked bend and has a habit of down changing too early and subsequent over-revving occurs. Couple two of those together, or one added to perhaps worn bearings with less then ideal tolerances and then you might experience a 's*it engine', yes. .

 

Except mine <cough> but I'm told that's because I don't drive fast enough

 

Bollocks, you just have a good one like many others.

 

 

I'm still yet to hear of the 8v rod route being tested thoroughly...? Edit; Or in fact as GLP reminds above, didn't this do not a lot?

 

In previous years, people were ripping these engines out of 100+k 405/BX's and doing little more than inspect them before whacking them in 205's, hanging them off the limiter everywhere they went, from cold, for a few years before going BaNG/running shells etc & then proclaiming the engine 'crap', is madness.

 

Despite the fact that they did that, which is alone pretty damn impressive, for very little cost as you could pick them up for peanuts anyway, made them simply awesome. A couple of hundred quid and some ingenuity had you a blisteringly quick hot-hatch, & that wasn't to be sniffed at, but you'd be mad to expect that to last forever.

 

Doing that and then generally claiming they're a sh!t engine and subsequently changing to a harder to convert a more complicated/expensive and arguably boring GTi6 when they then snap belts, bend valves, melt pistons etc, generally just have their own weak points, is not progress to me.

 

Mi's are the characterful, period, definitive 16v conversion for a 205.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Baz

[cybernck 402 1 Cars]

The front Mi16 engine in the Mi32 was ripped out of a high miler 405 10 years ago, done nothing major to it

except fitting it in the 205, followed by 10 years of road use, track racing, hillclimbs, autoslaloms and then

drag racing together with the rear Mi16 engine - that itself had no history, stood half-apart for a number of years

and then we just bolted back together (with new service items obviously) - and they both have never skipped a beat.

 

(touch wood!)

 

On the other hand, my strictly gentle road use 2003 2.0 16v Auto 307 bent a rod, apparently due to a hydrolock .

[Batfink 201]

I'm sure sandy said he knew of many race engines running slicks with solid lifters and appropriate cams + the oil restrictor in the oilway and these were fine.

[Kitch 4]

Some interesting points to go over there, cheers.

 

We've had a look at the head in detail and the general layout today.

 

Two things we noticed.....firstly, it looks like it's possible to open out the oil return galleys. The feed is a single tubular port and the returns are slightly larger ones, one at each end of the head. The galley they return to in the block isn't tubular, it's a cast shape (it's the best way I can think to describe it) and although that imprint is on the head, the return in the head is purely tubular with no obvious reason (other than time saved in manufacturing) as to why. So we're going to experiment with opening these out - something you have to do on SBC V8's too I found out!

The second thing I noticed, is that by using the LDV bell housing, the tilt of the engine will actually be reduced. I'm wondering is this will help improve the oil return, as I know that fitting the engine with a more aggressive tilt as some do in the 205 can restrict oil return.

 

Right now our solution is the head work, a tin sump modified to an "anvil" type (as I have the room) to carry more oil, baffles in the sump and possibly an accusump. And once it's driving (and IVA'd) steadily increase the abuse from there and see how much it will take. Short of cleaning the first engine out thoroughly, I won't spend any money on it because I'm going to assume it'll die educating me!

[Sandy 191]

I'm sure sandy said he knew of many race engines running slicks with solid lifters and appropriate cams + the oil restrictor in the oilway and these were fine.

 

True.