Are People Missing The Point Worrying About Potential Resale?

[Anthony 1,003]

There's something that's been creeping in more and more on this forum recently that is perplexing me somewhat - namely the worry and fretting about potential resale value.

 

This seems to have been a fairly recent thing, as it hasn't ever really been present during the bulk of the 9 years that I've been on the forum, and yet now, seemingly most threads where anyone is looking to modify a car away from standard are met with disapproving responses and mutterings about future value.

 

Indeed, we're pretty much at the point that there are people who aren't using the cars because of worry of what the increased mileage or heaven forbid a stonechip will do to the value of the car if they ever choose to sell it.

 

Am I the only one to whom this seems like utter madness?

 

To me, a car like a 205 GTi is there to be driven, to be enjoyed, and to be used.

 

Certainly that's why I own a 205, and I've always said that the day I can no longer drive and enjoy it whenever I want is the day that I will sell it. Mine is being daily driven at the moment and has racked up well over 1000 miles already this month, no doubt picking up a few more stone chips and a little wear and tear in the process. Oh well. It doesn't matter because I don't know what the future will bring, but I do know that a deserted twisty stretch of tarmac in the spring sunshine right here, right now, is joyous in a 205.

 

Stringing together that series of corner, placing the car inch perfect to each apex, getting that heel and toe just right, and steering the car through that ever-tightening radius not with the wheel but with the throttle. The responsive brakes, the razor-sharp throttle, the feelsome steering and the balanced chassis that isn't held back by nannying so previlent in todays cars. This is what a 205 is all about, not worrying about what it might be worth in a few years time.

 

The purists will recoil in horror at the fact that I'll be dropping a 16v lump in mine at some point this year, but to me, if that makes the car more enjoyable to drive and more pleasant to use, then why not? If it doesn't, then I'll just remove it and refit the current engine. It's not like the rest of the car is factory fresh anyway given that it has had so much changed over the years that it's akin to Tiggers broom and thus already about as attractive as syphilis to the sort of buyer looking for an original example.

 

My last 205 was used and occasionally abused. It covered the length and bresdth of Britain, through all seasons, and it was used on the daily commute, on track, at the 'Ring, and as a van. It went through more changes that the Fleetwood Mac lineup, but one thing that never changed was the smile it put on my face whenever I drove it. I did over 60k miles in it, and despite being on 174k miles and sporting the inevitable scars from use, it still appreciated in value *and* I have great memories from it.

 

What I'm saying is don't lose track of why we all bought and (mostly) love these cars - it wasn't to maybe be a few hundred quid better off at some point in the future if we choose to sell and if the market hasn't dramatically changed. It was because they're one of the best, if not the best, drivers hot-hatches ever made and one which is still used as a benchmark today.

 

Keep it as original as the day it left the factory, or modify it so that all that is original is the VIN plate - whatever works for you.

 

Just get out there and drive it.

[dave richards 26 1 Cars]

my 1.9 is my daily driver

[pugdamo 111 2 Cars]

Iv got a 309 and a 205 and i drive mine all the time,my 205 has done 153k and i dont worry about putting more on it,as you said they are there to be driven,if i get any stone chips thats what paint shops are for :-)

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

Each to their own I say. My laser green has done only 63k miles, only 4k in the last 12 years. It is therefore in pretty much the same condition as it was in 2000, and rather than rack miles up and turn it into a run of the mill 100k mile 205 GTI, I would rather try to improve it's condition if anything. Of course I have another 205 to use, but even if I did not, I would still not want to use the laser a lot. Each to their own I say.

[205kenny 7]

I'm lucky because my car is a heap in the first place. So any modification, although it may not improve, won't make it worse and certainly won't affect value.

 

I think alot of people worry about losing money modifying cars because even though it may not decrease the value of the car, it is not going to increase it by the amount you spend. The best way (money wise) is to buy a car that is already at the spec you want. But then i'v always found most of the fun is doing the mods and seeing any improvement (if any).

[GLPoomobile 958]

I suspect that your recent observation Anthony, is a result of 205 GTIs finally starting to increase in value. GO back 2 or 3 years and you could have your pick of half decent, running GTIs for under a grand. By one of them and use it as it was intended, with no thought to it's value. As bad as it's sounds, they were almost valueless.

 

Now we're seeing the really good OE examples starting to fetch several thousand, so I presume that those who are fortunate enough to own such good examples are starting to treat them like an investment.

[Richie 32]

I think people worrying about resale was inevitable as these little cars reach classic status.

 

I for one hope that some 205's are preserved and kept with low mileage, just because it's lovely to see a concourse example.

 

However it's not for me, my 205 has cost me a fortune and I intend to get some grinning action for all the money i've spent on the bloody thing, it owes me some fun drives.

 

So my stance is, by all means preserve a select few 205's, but i'm not doing it I have too much fun driving them

[Cameron 16]

As above really, the more a car gets viewed as a classic, the more people want to be careful and protect their investment. You don't get the same people slapping all sorts of cheap crap on a car that has a bit of value, once you're over the £1,500 or so threshold people start being a lot more careful about what they do to their car!

 

That being said, I don't think engine conversions or good modifications i.e. subtle suspension upgrades or replacing the tape deck with a stereo that works(!) should devalue a car. I've not been afraid to give my little Miami a 30mm drop because I think it looks so much better, especially against much lower looking modern cars. I could leave it totally as it was intended - a poverty spec 1.6 with windy windows and a useless tape deck, or I could fit some nice mod-cons to make it that much more enjoyable to use day to day: electric windows, central locking, heated windscreen, a decent stereo! It increases what the car is worth to me as it's daily user, so I don't see why it wouldn't do the same for it's resale value.

 

I can understand how some of the eBay monstrosities would be worthless, but well thought-out respectful mods? Nah.. OE+ FTW!

Edited March 20, 2012 by Cameron

[davey sprocket 14]

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments Anthony, my car's far from mint and I use it and abuse it in the manner that it was intended....

 

but...

 

Always in the back of my mind is the fact that it is just a toy.

Times are pretty tough out there... I could lose my job tomorrow, in which case both my unnecessary cars and most of my fleet of bicycles would very quickly be whittled down to feed and keep a roof over my family's heads. It is only that that has prevented me from significantly altering the 205, deliberately spending money on it in a way that would reduce its resale value is quite a leap in my head.

I guess I'm overly-cautious but it has stood me in good stead over the years.

[BlueBolt 156]

I respect my Miami as a classic, but at the same time as that I can't help but feel I bought the car for driving!! I'm not making period mods, I'm putting a 6 lump in it. I'm not going to be ripping the internals out, I'm not going to be completely bast**dising it either, but the engine and the suspension and running gear and other bits and pieces are going to be tweaked to my own liking!!

 

I do appreciate that there are many that want to keep their cars original, bring them back to OEM exacts, and have them on pride of place, but why let it get to the stage of trailering the car to classic car shows and such?? (I've seen this happen with onld Triumph's and such)

 

I'll appreciate the OEM's, but I'll still appreciate the mods too...

[stu8v 68 1 Cars]

Yeah to me its a bit boring all this investment thing.

 

To me they are just toys to have fun times in, once there time is up you sell on and move on.

 

Thats not to say I wouldnt have kept every single one, its just space and finances will not allow. Infact I would be a hoarder.

 

I've had alsorts from Alfasuds/sprints an AE86 corolla, Integrales, 205's all great IMHO but there is always the next best thing.

 

Even now I have another yearning for a Lotus Sunbeam or AE86 and I'm barely halfway through my present build!!!!!

[sensualt101 31 1 Cars]

i think that as time goes on and interest grows in 205 gti's the remaining cars will be seen as classics and therefore an investment but too much credence is payed to milage as many a high milage car will have been looked after very well or it wouldnt have reached the high milage in the 1st place and many lower milage cars may have just been left undriven ( never forget all machines need to be used to work properly! ) and unmaintained or even driven til they have broken down and just stored in that state hence an artificially low milage for their age!

 

i am thinking that a cars resale value should primarily be on its general condition but especially whether its interior is all present and correct ( as many will have been stripped out / modified ) because they are the things that will be most difficult to source and put back to as original should they be missing due to availabilty.

 

next bodywork as more and more panels are unavailable new from peugeot and rarely can you find a 205 gti in a scrapyard and most you do find will be almost bare shells by now although as ever if you have the time patience and deep enough pockets right now most parts can eventually be found i reckon it wont be long before that is very much not the case!

 

then finally the oily bits as obviously cars that have an engine that was fitted when the car was new ie ( 1.6 or 1.9 xu 8 valve ) would i am guessing be worth the most as they would be the closest to original!

 

then of course we have all of the re engined cars with different peugeot family engines in ie ( 405 mi16/bx 16v 309 s16/gti 6 ) and many others.

 

maybe they are in a condition to return to standard so will retain more value than those butchered to the point that they need virtually remanufacturing to return to standard but all will retain a value.

 

then you have a premium for all present and correct limited editions ie those made by peugeot the miami's lazer's 205 gti 1fm's griffes etc and those not made by peugeot ie cheetahs and skip brown roadspeed's then of course the dimma's and guttmann's!

 

so there will always be a wide spectrum of the cars values depending on milage , condition and percieved desirability but as always ultimately a car like any object or possession will only ever be worth what someone is willing to pay!

 

like anthony i am firmly of the opinion that a car is to be driven and mine is my daily driver! and as long as i can afford to keep driving it everyday and enjoying every mile i will do so!

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

who cares what they are worth?

 

mines a hobby (given im mostly fixing it not driving it) it keeps me out of mischeif.

 

ive spent a lot of time and money on my new shell and with a respray coming up (ford diamond white btw purists beware) it'll be even more. i dont care if i ever get my money back as i would have only spent it on cr*p anyway.

 

as much as i appreciate the classic status of the 205 and any other old classic car (jags, mg's and the like) i like to put my stamp on anything i own (hence the heavy tattoing i have) i get it how i want it and if then i dont like it i'll change it again, no bother.

 

ive been through 30+ cars in 10yrs but only 2 205's so that must say something about my appreciation for them?

 

horses for courses i say, i wont have anyone look down on my for not having a 'mint' std car.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

I'm confused by all this 'keeping it standard' to retain (or increase)its value. Im perhaps different but a 'mint' subtely modded Mi'd 205 will always be worth more to me than standard 8v. Just like a 16v 4/5 linked mk2 escort would be more desirable (to me) than a bog standard rs2000. A period modified mini would be of much greater interest to me than a bog standard cooper of the same age.

 

I'm not critical about any of my cars and I think I enjoy them more for that very reason. As for mods, I've never ever considered how a mod will affect re-sale value, I couldn't care less. It's all about having fun with them for me.

 

Kudos to you guys restoring and keeping them original but I'm afraid it's not for me.

 

[Daviewonder 533 3 Cars]

Maybe people are under the impression that their 205 is gonna be worth a small fortune in the future when they sell it on?

 

Fair enough if you have a really low milage one thats had 1 owner and full history. Let's be honest though, best part of us own ones with 100k + and different shades of panels that are never really going to get us much money when sold.

 

You know what bracket you fall into

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I've not used my CTi in around 6 years now, She's sitting in a nice dry store and maybe in another 5 years I'll bring her out for a complete ground up rebuild not that it needs it but to make it mint again and then it will only get driven when it's dry, Same goes for my other 205's none are daily drivers nor will they ever as I have bigger car's for that purpose and going from a 406 boot to even a 306 boot is tiny so a 205 one is purely silly in my boot.

It's about time people think of these car's more than a cheap run around which can be bodge'd together, so hopefully the values will keep going up

[Baz 421]

 

It's about time people think of these car's more than a cheap run around which can be bodge'd together, so hopefully the values will keep going up

Hear hear!

[Alan77 78 1 Cars]

Totally agree with your OP Anthony. Mine has done 185k and is now (touch wood) running great after a new HG. Also agree with Sensualt about high milers being taken care of. I'm certainly not fussed about appreciation of a few hundred quid on a daily driver worth about a grand...

[sambaileyw 2]

I'm thinking that if you've got a minter its as much fun to keep it standard, clean and tidy.. take it to shows etc etc, as it is to have a mad 200bhp+ track/road toy.. its more about enjoying the car in whichever way suits you best

[allye 530 3 Cars]

Pretty much every non-car person I talk to about my car and show them, the first thing they say is 'how have you spent on it' I try to explain I'm never going to get my money back and I don't do it for that, its a hobby that I enjoy is why.

 

I then ask them, whats your hobby? The say 'golf' or similar and as Top Gear has highlighted, that aint cheap!

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

I had never thought of my GTi as old until I was talking to our latest student at work.... Shes 20, and the same age as my GTi! Did make me stop and think... Maybe I do have any old car that should be looked after a little more...

 

However mine is a daily driver and I'm certinaly not going to worry about resale values. My GTi is my car, it gets used for going to work, track days, going to the tip and just driving fun! There is nothing puts me in a better mood, than taking the back roads to work and turing up to the security gate with the smell of cooking brakes.....

 

 

If I had a mint example, I would propbabily take a different view.

 

 

 

Mad.

[pip470 61]

I certainly have not invested money into my car, what i have done is thrown money into my hobby. This is why I get up and go to work. Each to their own i suppose.

[chipstick 382 1 Cars]

I can see peoples point.

 

I worked with a guy that did a lot of banger racing. Would pay £50 for a mk1 escort and went through a fair few of them. Look at the prices now for just an ID!

 

It's what you want from a car.

 

I have had a few GTi6's yet always liked 205's. I went to buy one for a good price and found it to be a shed. I went away thinking I should just have a 306 again, much easier to find a decent one, and at less of a premium. I started looking for a 306 while continuing to seek a 205 if one 'came up'. I then read into 205's with GTi6 conversions. PING! I thought I can have the best of both worlds. The heart of the car I love, and the shell that I love the look of. I then made my search even harder. I wanted a 205, which I was going to potentially ruin - so didn't want to buy a high end one. There would be no point me paying say 2k for a 1.9 with a good engine. I contemplated finding a 1.6 as I thought they would be cheaper, but I wanted the disc rear beam and the 1.9 interior. And again as sad as it sounds, the 1.9 was always more iconic to me so that as a base would make me happier. I also limited myself to white. Why? As that is what I wanted, what would make me happy. Yes it's a colour, but I knew I wouldn't be happy with anything else.

 

I was giving up on the hunt as cheaper cars were up country, or rotten through. I then came across a non runner which meant I wouldn't feel 'bad' about runing a classic.

 

A few people I spoke to said 'oh, you will ruin it, it won't be worth as much if it's not original'. So? I didn't do it to make money.

 

For what I wanted, this makes me happy. I could have a nice low mileage 1.9 in white on the drive owing me a couple of grand. But, I know I wouldn't want to use it. Not because of fear of damage or mileage, but because I wouldn't be happy with it and would always want to sell it as I can't justify having a toy owe me good money. In hindsight, for what I have spent on mine, I would have been buying a good original 1.9 and spending that inital price and know where I was so to speak, but I got carried away with this one, and you know what? Who cares. I have spent more than it is worth, more than I will ever get back. Yet I have enjoyed every minute of it so that's worth it to me.

 

Just, i'l probably have to break it in order to get the most back out of it.

[Carbs4me 45]

Been Driving mine everyday for the past 2 years, put another 14k miles on it so far! its now reached 154k miles!

 

tbh i dont care how much ive abused it, how many miles its got... i actually plan to keep my 205 till the day i die... to be past on.... unless crashed

 

I think no matter how many miles it has what condition it is in, if your planning on keeping your car regardless of its price tag or its price tag in years to come... the thing is the car is becoming rarer and rarer each day that goes by! even if i was to clock up another 200k miles in the next 40 years and sure the car would be worth a considerable amount!

 

Even if i won the lottery i would still run the 205 into the ground! only to return it to its former glory! and to never sell it!

 

I think its fair to say that someone does need to be sensible and keep a good 1 for the museums!

 

But my car is just a dirty whore so i treat her like one!

[BlueBolt 156]

But my car is just a dirty whore so i treat her like one!

 

Hell yes that's what I think too!! Lol