205 Rallye Front Subframe Setup

[mark_ashley 0]

Hi, was wondering if any of the experienced members could help.

 

I have a 205 rallye and I have removed the front subframe and was about to take it for powder coating however I would like to uprate the anti roll bar.

 

I have searched and cant seem to find any options other than going for a 205/309 gti ARB which would mean I need different arms as they mount differently. This would mean getting a gti subframe, which then involves moving the gear linkage mount.

 

It all seems a lot of work. But is this the only option? If so is it worth it or is thewre anything else I can do. Better suspension and work on the rear is to follow but whilst it was all apart I wanted to get it out the way.

 

I hear people mention there may be early saxo models with the same set up as the 205 rallye/xs? Is this possible?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark.

[welshpug 1,655]

that is the only viable option, there is of course the euro rallye subframe, but as the cars themselves as a whole are like hens teeth the former is the only option.

 

moving the gear linkage mounting is a doddle, chop it off with a thin disc and weld it on in the TU position.

 

 

or leave it where it is and do a BE4 conversion

 

 

the ax saxo and 106 do not have subframes at all.

[tunnicliffe 1]

the gti subframe and bottom arms are worth upgrading to without to much cost

[allye 530 3 Cars]

Moving the gear linkage mount isn't that much work just a bit of welding, changing to GTI setup is a massive upgrade by itself so well worth while rather than messing around with the base model setup.

 

Edit : 3 posts in the same min

Edited March 6, 2012 by allye

[mark_ashley 0]

Moving the gear linkage mount isn't that much work just a bit of welding, changing to GTI setup is a massive upgrade by itself so well worth while rather than messing around with the base model setup.

 

Edit : 3 posts in the same min

 

Have you changed subframe? Do the hubs need changing as I have some 106 gti calipers on these hubs, and wasnt sure if they would go onto the gti hubs if necessary?

[welshpug 1,655]

no the hubs can stay, you'll beed to change your dampers as yours wont have a tab for the droplink currently, your brakes will fit 1.9 hubs but the shafts wont fit your gearbox.

[mark_ashley 0]

no the hubs can stay, you'll beed to change your dampers as yours wont have a tab for the droplink currently, your brakes will fit 1.9 hubs but the shafts wont fit your gearbox.

 

This just happened....

Cant imagine it being an issue as i can probably punch that bolt out cant I? And did i read somewhere that the GTI subframe bolts are different to the rallye ones in which the centre bolt goes up into the chassis leg rather then down from the rubber that is bolted up into the chassis leg on the rallye?

 

So I rekon the concencus is GTI subframe and arms with ARB (is 1.9 thicker than 1.6) and Peugeot bushes. Keep the rallye hubs and 106 gti calpiers. Then get some 205 gti suspension sorted. With the top mount bolt spacing be the same as the holes on the rallye?

[allye 530 3 Cars]

I'm struggling to work out what that picture is!?

 

1.6/9 front ARB's are the same, strut mount holes are the same its all just bolt on.

 

I have a GTI subframe as I've got the 6' engine in mine.

[mark_ashley 0]

That is a pic of the underside I the passenger side, front chassis rail. It is where the subframe bolts to the chassis.

[MiniGibbo 142]

Are the gains really worth it for the work involved....

 

I haven't been in a gti for a number of years now but don't remember it being mind blowing compared to my Rallye.

[rallyeash 155]

fit the whole gti front end, definatly worth it. i fitted gti running gear with 309 wishbones and driveshafts when i went XU in my 205 rallye.

[welshpug 1,655]

its difficult to compare as there's a different lump hanging out front, the real comparison would be a real Euro rallye.

[allye 530 3 Cars]

its difficult to compare as there's a different lump hanging out front, the real comparison would be a real Euro rallye.

 

Ali blocked Tu engine'd LHD, got to be THE best handerling 205 ever sold!

[kenp 3]

Out of interest, was the Euro Rallye subframe effectively just a modified GTi one or a different beast altogether?

[welshpug 1,655]

gti type wishbones with TU type gear post.

[tomcolinjones 26]

fit the whole gti front end, definatly worth it

 

+1 I changed the 'tu style' subframe to an xu item on my Cti, along with 309 wishbones. some people say there is not much of a difference, its just the benefit of going from old bushes on the tu subframe to new bushes on the xu subframe. The Cti could do with a stiffer rear end now as i think the gti front arb is quite a bit stiffer than the base model ones, just go up to a good gti beam and it should be balanced. you will need gti dampers on the front to bolt your anti roll bar links to.

[welshpug 1,655]

the gti arb is actually much thinner than the base model item, which also acts to locate the TCA's fore/aft.

 

there were 20, 22 and 23mm use with TCA's, the full wishbone type suspension only used a 17mm diameter ARB.

 

 

basic carb 309's used TCA's and the same 22/22/23 arb's, carb 1.9, diesel and turbo diesel used a 17mm arb, gti and GTi16 used 21mm.

Edited March 7, 2012 by welshpug

[mark_ashley 0]

fit the whole gti front end, definatly worth it. i fitted gti running gear with 309 wishbones and driveshafts when i went XU in my 205 rallye.

 

re this setup, may I ask if you had trouble fitting the wheels under the arches, read a few places people saying using 309 bits can make it too wide.. is this not the case if you just use the wishbones then? is the extra width just in the 309 subframe?

[welshpug 1,655]

no, the extra 20mm comes from the 10mm per side extra in the wishbones, its the same subframe.

[tomcolinjones 26]

I have used this setup on my xs, my gti and the cti, with 1.9, 1.6 and xs steels and i had no trouble with wheels catching. you get some negative camber which is good tho.

[mark_ashley 0]

no, the extra 20mm comes from the 10mm per side extra in the wishbones, its the same subframe.

 

So if i were going as far as even swapping the wishbones, im possibly just best off going for a whole 309 subframe. 10mm per side is a lot, Im not really wanting to stick on any euro arches or anything but i am considering some decent coilovers on the front so Id have to look at how much arch work will be needed.. is there much difference in width with just the GTI wishbones?

 

EDIT:

I have used this setup on my xs, my gti and the cti, with 1.9, 1.6 and xs steels and i had no trouble with wheels catching. you get some negative camber which is good tho.

 

So on your xs you didnt actually get any rubbing on the arches?

 

Thats good to know, will be running 106 rallye steels with r888 rubber and was worried the width would add to issues.

Edited March 7, 2012 by mark_ashley

[tomcolinjones 26]

will be running 106 rallye steels with r888 rubber and was worried the width would add to issues.

 

its 10mm when the wishbone is level, and at that point, at the top of the wheel its more like 6mm, i guess it depends on how low you go. -30 i had no problems with 1.9 wheels with 195 tyres when the s16 lump was in my base model. I dont know how different the s2 steels offset are to the 1.9 wheels. if you are unsire then stick with the 205 arms, as welshpug said the subframes are the same, 205 and 309. the extra width / neg camber is from the arms. but i cant see it being a problem for you.

[mark_ashley 0]

its 10mm when the wishbone is level, and at that point, at the top of the wheel its more like 6mm, i guess it depends on how low you go. -30 i had no problems with 1.9 wheels with 195 tyres when the s16 lump was in my base model. I dont know how different the s2 steels offset are to the 1.9 wheels. if you are unsire then stick with the 205 arms, as welshpug said the subframes are the same, 205 and 309. the extra width / neg camber is from the arms. but i cant see it being a problem for you.

 

Tell thee what Is a problem, I have just seen the price of new 309 gti shafts!!! Finding the ams, shafts and ARB could be an expensive job :-/

[mark_ashley 0]

Following on from the above post though, if this is to believed: http://websworld.org/marcel/309/tech/shafts.html

 

And considering I am using my original 205 rallye shafts, and a 106gti engine + i would need an extra 10mm length if using the 309 gti wishbones, I would assume I can get away with using 309 1.4 driveshafts?? Same splines and the extra 10mm length?

[tomcolinjones 26]

They arent cheap thats for sure! you will get away with normal ones, generally most people say they are fine on normal 205 shafts.