Rear Beam Rebuild

[Tom Fenton 1,536]

where are they then, the library ?

 

Is that another way of calling me thick ?

 

With answers like that, I think the rest of the forum can decide that one for themselves.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

I tend to use this stuff for my beams these days. It's actually marine prop shaft grease.

http://biltema.no/no/Bat/Kjemikalier/Motorolje/Propellakselfett-36315/

 

Translated:

"Mineral oil based grease containing calcium / lead-soap as a thickening agent and so-called EP-additives, which provide good water resistance. Contains rust and oxidation-resistant additives and are mechanically stable"

 

I started using it on 405 beams, that actually is a far worse design than the 205 ones if you ask me, put togeather a 405 beam with 1 tube of this grease on each side, and put togeather on bearing taps that had some rust and not 100% perfect surfaces. 4 years later running 100kkm and a lot of salty roads it still was like when the day I mounted it.

 

I put this grease just all over the shafts on the 205 beams now, it's really sticky (almost impossible to remove from hands without white sprite or thinner). I have problems believeing it won't help the life of the seals and hence water ingress at least. And also protect against corrosion in case of water ingress.

[SurGie 54]

Quoting me then saying that says it all really

 

People can think this of you, people can think that of you, it does not 'make' you that.

 

Oilite bearings seep it's oil out when under too much friction, thus if this red grease blocks it's pores it would still seep it's oil out due to this high friction.

 

B1ack_Mi16, that grease seems to solve it all in one go, thanks for the link and info

[welshpug 1,646]

if the grease blocks the pores the oil will not seep out, whatever the friction levels.

 

excess friction would lead to wear, and sticktion

 

 

seems peugeot's choice of a needle roller bearing was quite wise

[Rippthrough 98]

Quoting me then saying that says it all really

 

People can think this of you, people can think that of you, it does not 'make' you that.

 

Oilite bearings seep it's oil out when under too much friction, thus if this red grease blocks it's pores it would still seep it's oil out due to this high friction.

 

B1ack_Mi16, that grease seems to solve it all in one go, thanks for the link and info

 

The oil seeps out from heat and the combination of capillary action and surface tension against a rotating surface, so no, it won't seep through if you've blocked the pores with grease.

[SurGie 54]

Yeah so wise they fitted these so when they get knackered they break and mess up the inside of the beam like some of mine ive found. How can they have stiction when they are oilite, ie oil will seep out under friction, rollers dont. Rollers also rust unlike oilite.

 

Here > helps stop any water if it did get in to get behind the bush as well.

 

Well my beam engineers disagree, their oilite manufacturer said its fine to use. If it blocks the pours which i doubt, there is still grease there.

 

The grease i found in my old beam thats been untouched since new has what looks like standard grease.

 

No matter what grease you use the shaft will still wear down where the bearings are over time.

[Rippthrough 98]

How can they have stiction when they are oilite, ie oil will seep out under friction, rollers dont.

 

Eh?

Oilite has orders of magnitude more stiction than a roller needle bearing!

[welshpug 1,646]

Yeah so wise they fitted these so when they get knackered they break and mess up the inside of the beam

 

Not a problem if you maintain it properly and replace before they break up.

 

Most will have lasted far longer than the expected life of the vehicles, you forget that they really were not designed to last this long!!

[SurGie 54]

Just to clear a few things up a bit, iv now had a look on packet of the red grease i originally linked and it clearly states that it's a >

 

Multi-purpose EP grease on the front label.

 

On the back it states that >

 

Especially good for sliding surfaces !

 

Then it says >

 

Red N Tacky is a technical blend of lithium and polymers, plus a heavy addition of "anti wear"/"anti-seize" agent that set it apart from similar grease's. For maximum surface protection 540 F drop point. Good resistance to rust and corrosion, good resistance to acid and alkali and temperature stability.

 

So not only does it have excellent water resistance it is also an EP grease, which has been recommended to use by members on this thread. It seems to be similar to the above link of cable grease but much cheaper.

[Tom Fenton 1,536]

You really don't understand what anyone else is trying to say.

 

As I have said before, it is the viscosity that is the issue. Go look up the data sheets and make the comparison.

[Anthony 1,002]

Surgie - there are some knowledgeable people on this thread, and you'd be wise to listen to what they're saying and learn from it.

 

It's your choice if you choose not to do that, but please, stop recommending a product to people when you've been told why it's likely to be ill-suited and when you haven't any long term use of it to back up your recommendation.

 

Resistance to water is not the primary function of the grease in the beam, but rather to lubricate the bearings, and that's where the tacky grease you'd suggesting isn't going to work well for the reasons mentioned. Besides, as I've said before, once you've got water in the beam (the symptom of something being wrong such as a seal having failed) then at best you're buying time because it WILL fail once that happens. The solution is to stop the water getting in to begin with, and that's where properly building the beam and periodically regreasing and replacing the seals comes in.

 

I have built beams with Oilon bearings before now, and I was explicitly warned not to use certain greases with them. There's little doubt that Oilon bearings will elimiate the issue of the needle bearings wearing and disintegrating, but as was mentioned earlier in the thread, stiction is a problem - even by hand unloaded it was noticeable that it didn't move quite as freely as an arm running on needle bearings would, and this is why I stuck to standard needle bearings for my own beam.

[Rippthrough 98]

Just a heads up, Oilon, and Oilite are two very different materials

 

If you make bushes out of Oilon then they'll be fine with grease (although should still be using low viscosity in an oscillating app) and they won't mind a bit of water either tbh. However, the sintered bronze Oilte bushes are a definate no-no with that grease.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Rippthrough

[Anthony 1,002]

Sorry I perhaps wasn't entirely clear - obviously they're different (oilon being a self-lubricating hard plastic/nylon of sorts) but as far as I know that and Oilite are going to suffer the same sort of issues with stiction (point made earlier in the thread) which was the main point I was trying to make. Perhaps wrongly, I was told that the oilon won't work properly when used with certain grease as it messes with the self-lubrication, but I'm guessing from what you're saying that it doesn't - or at least not in the same manner that it does with oilite?

[Rippthrough 98]

Yeah, oilon isn't as fussy about grease/water (although some grease will attack it with it being nylon based), etc, as the oil is released just by leaching from the wearing surface rather than being sucked through pores as with oilite, but yes, both have far more stiction than a roller bearing

Edited February 7, 2012 by Rippthrough

[Alastairh 47]

Not a problem if you maintain it properly and replace before they break up.

 

Most will have lasted far longer than the expected life of the vehicles, you forget that they really were not designed to last this long!!

 

Bingo. Personally i've never understood spending the time going for aftermarket bearings, when a well serviced beam with the original components using the recommended grease as per post 2 is more than up for the job for 5+ years. If you compare the ratios of rear beam failiures of 205/309 GTi's to the rest of the range of Citreons and Peugeot with the same concept rear beam, most of the failiures are linked to those that had been badly lowered and without replacement seals in the earlier years of the cars life. *Personal opinion*.

 

Al

[welshpug 1,646]

I'd agree with that opinion Alastair, have dismantled a few previouslt lowered units to find them almost entirely scrap, where most original units are partially servicable even after 12-13 years.

[stu8v 68 1 Cars]

And there was me asking an innocent question LOL

Edited February 7, 2012 by stu8v

[SurGie 54]

I still see nothing to back up whats been said about it, ie the data.

 

Its an EP and lithium based bearing grease thats water repellent and also for wheel bearings i didn't mention, end of. So when someone posts to use EP grease it would be good to know what type of ep grease to use, i would have thought all ep greases are the same.

 

As for testing it i have, maybe not for a along time or with loading friction forces but still its far better than the other greases iv tried, all the beams iv seen have been rusted and no one can say that water/moisture cannot get it what so ever. The amount of rusted shafts iv seen is loads.

[welshpug 1,646]

granted you have seen lots of brown shafts, but i'd bet they had been well over a decade old and severely neglected so its quite unsurprising.

 

a wheel bearing application is quite drastically different to an ill chosen bush on a trailing arm shaft.

[Tom Fenton 1,536]

Surgie, if you want to use this grease it is your choice.

 

Everyone else is intelligent enough to make their own choice from the information presented.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

Stu, are you using the standard needle bearings? If so I always use bog standard general purpose grease like many others.

I recently lowered a beam I rebuilt over 4 years ago and it was still very good inside, just a bit s*itty down the arm end plate.. I cleaned it all up, re-greased and fitted new arb seals with a smear of rtv on them.

 

My only experience with oilite was in an industrial applications (conveyors) and we used a very light oil.

 

Just for the record I really can't see the need for running anything other than the standard needle rollers. IMO beam life is dependant on how well it's put together. I recently had my 205 incas (read wanka) beam apart, it's 15 years and 95k old and had never previously been apart to lower etc. it was spot on inside, the seals could of done with replacing but I was rushed for time and didnt have any so it went back together with nothing but a new arb bush and arb seals.

I'm not sure about any one else but I think that testament itself that there's bugger all up with the bearings.

 

My 2 pence anyway, you can get back to arguing now

[Anthony 1,002]

The standard needle bearings do seem to suffer on beams with significantly uprated torsion bars, but certainly on standard and mildly uprated beams they're absolutely fine and good for years worth of service as you say - strip and grease every few years with new seals and they'll easily outlast the car IMO

[stu8v 68 1 Cars]

Yeah all OE std back end.

 

New shafts, bearings and seals.

 

Its got a 25mm A/R bar to be fitted and will have 23mm uprated torsion bars if the group buy ever gets going....

 

Just held up by a broken thumb at the minute though!!!!

[SurGie 54]

Here is some information for those that also have oilite bearings fitted.

 

After a fair bit of research and time, i have found the perfect oil to protect the shaft from rusting and keep the oilite bearings oiled up & prevent any stiction.

 

http://www.ktzmy-us.com/pro-503.html this is MoS2 Molydebnum disulphide oil which contains graphite. The graphite makes it stick to steel for a very long time while keeping the oilite bearings oiled up without blocking their pours. From what ive been told via oilite uk, it will also help any stiction from occuring. Its quite cheap to buy as well, you can even get it from B&Q.

 

I shall still be using a little of the red marine grease around the beams seals, so it will stop any water getting in if it ever wanted too.

[SurGie 54]

Im not sure why as a manager you cant simply link the data bout that grease and prove what you said to back it up, i have tried to find it with no luck. I want to know just because of the data on the package itself about its good for wheel bearings that have high loads etc.