Embrace The Ew!

[dcc 855]

are you sure you're getting full throttle body movement

[chrissi1106 1]

Hey, 

 

actually I am not that sure. I checked with Torque App and it only shows up to 80%, but the car feels how it should feel, and peugeot did not mention any TB-related problems.

 

I will check the throttle body as soon as my plugs arrives.

 

I made a little video to show you, maybe it helps.

Not completely pedal to the medal, just nearly getting closer to the rev limiter, than flooring it.

 

https://youtu.be/QKI671MQitI

Edited June 11, 2018 by chrissi1106

[dcc 855]

I would suggest you try a spare throttle body if you can

 

I would expect the ecu wont fuel for more than 80% throttle if you're only getting 80%

[chrissi1106 1]

But would that alter the rev limit? 

 

I have no other GTi180 throttle body, but I'll give it a try and atleast figure out, how wide the butterfly opens. 

[chrissi1106 1]

sorry for the double post, but I just checked the TB and made a new short video and a few pictures, which I upload for further investigation.

 

I think the butterfly opens enough, but also have no idea why torque is reading only 80% - I try to get another GTi180 to read that out.

 

But, after a few seconds of google:

https://torque-bhp.com/wiki/Throttle_Position

 

I SEEMS to be normal. Clueless.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq5wwNnRIic

 

 

Edited June 11, 2018 by chrissi1106

[Thijs_Rallye 87 4 Cars]

Drive by wire systems often have a strange reading on the throttle position. The system operates with a requested torque vs actual torque figure and opens the butterfly to suit.

 

Are there any faults registered in the ECU memory? And not just the ones that torque (environment related ones) can read, but also the intermittent faults. There must be something registered imho. It sounds like a limiter kicking in like you say. On modern ECU's there are lots of different limiters which operate on different parameters.

 

[chrissi1106 1]

Hey, there was nothing stored in the ecu except "ac compressor not responding", because I deleted the ac System a year ago. I try to upload the logs from peugeot later this day. 

[speaksgeek 5]

If I was making a guess, it sounds more to me like a faulty crank sensor, or camshaft sync sensor than anything else. The crank angle sensor is near to the area that would be worked on when the clutch is changed.

The knock sensor is listening for a very specific frequency.

 

From memory, the way the throttle limiter feels when it is used for the stability program feels quite different to the ignition cut that occurs when you rev all the way to the red line (7300rpm).

The throttle limit is very drastic, and is like you have lifted the pedal. The red line bounces down and back up quickly.

 

Have you checked the plug on the crank sensor, that it's not coming apart, and is seated correctly?

[chrissi1106 1]

Hello, 

 

sorry for the late respone! I changed the spark plugs yesterday, cleaned the crankshaft and camshaftsensors and found out, that my gearbox mount bracket was coming apart, so that was nice. The new plugs changed nothing and also cleaning the sensors was useless. Fixing the gearbox bracket also did not help. I have not tested to remove the knock sensor yet, because I cant imagine that this is the fault, but I will try that, after I changed a few parts with a working GTi180. There is one a few hundred kilometers away, with the same problem, but his seemed to be gone, after he had done a compression test.

 

I also got the protocol from peugeot and will write down the keyparts (the protocol is german, so I will translate it instead of just uploading it)

 

 

•                     Engine speed     Voltage     Injection length    Overrun     Coolant temp
• Idle:               736rpm             14.3V         3.120ms                no                87°C
• Idle max:    7168rpm             14.3V         0 (cut off?)             no               82°C
• 3. Gear:      7008rpm             14.3V         0                             no                91°C
• 2. Gear:      6912rpm             14.3V         0                             no                87°C
• Idle*:          6976rpm             14.3V         0                             no                96°C

 

*after testdrive

 

I will meet the other guy probably next weekend, but also got a friend near the nürburgring with the same car, who could lend me a few parts.

 

 

Thank you all very much

Edited June 17, 2018 by chrissi1106

[Tuuba 8]

About EW10J4S and DriveByWire:

 

I´m planning to install AEM Infinity ECU to my car and I want to use DBW. Does anyone have a pinout for throttle pedal (from 206 GTI180) and TB unit?

If so, would be very pleased to have this info =)

 

[speaksgeek 5]

1 minute ago, Tuuba said:

About EW10J4S and DriveByWire:

 

I´m planning to install AEM Infinity ECU to my car and I want to use DBW. Does anyone have a pinout for throttle pedal (from 206 GTI180) and TB unit?

If so, would be very pleased to have this info =)

 

Here is the pinout for the pedal supplied by Peugeot using service box. I have a Jenvey DBW motor and ITB's, so I didn't check the throttle body.

 

Unfortunately, I'm having trouble making it work (not with AEM, I've got Emtron KV8).

I think the output from the pedal must be a frequency or something. When I supply it 5V, the signal output is barely 0.2v change from 0-100%, and only on one signal side, the other doesn't change.

 

I'm considering using a GM LS engine pedal, as they are very common in Australia, on the Commodore.

ThrottlePedal.pdf

[petert 586]

LS the Pug!

[Schumi 2]

On 6/12/2018 at 8:13 AM, chrissi1106 said:

Hey, there was nothing stored in the ecu except "ac compressor not responding", because I deleted the ac System a year ago. I try to upload the logs from peugeot later this day. 

Did your garage do any ecu update via Genuine Peugeot Planet 2000 or DiagBox? Peugeot lowered ECU limiter of EW10J4S engines to 6950 rpm for some countries with hot or dirty weather with new ECU softwares.

[chrissi1106 1]

Hello, 

 

not as far as I know, but I will ask that. Next week should arrive a package with all engine sensors and ignitioncoil from another, working RC. I hope, that will help...

 

Thank you ALL very much.

[chrissi1106 1]

Hello folks!

 

Minor Update to the situation. A friend sent me his coilpack, vvt switch and camshaft sensor. On the way to my shop, the car sort of repaired itself. It will now rev out in all gears except neutral (but no idea if thats a problem tbh) but now has a slight revhang and doesnt reacts to the throttle input as before. That means, when shift down and want to match the revs, it doesnt rev as well.

 

Switching out the vvt switch, camshaft sensor and coilpack had no effect what so ever. Over night I will disconnect the battery and relearn the throttle body tomorrow and change the watertemp sensor.

 

Still very thankful!

 

Chrissi

[chrissi1106 1]

Sorry for double posting, but just remembered a user in a french forum told me to check the clutchpedal sensor... what should I say? I installed it correctly in its slot and now ALL problems are gone. 

 

Thats a reminder and I'll hope, it will help another user in the future.

 

 

All you guys well deserved my respect, just wanted to say thank you again (:

[Sp88 0]

Hi I've had an ew12j4 un my 206 for years now. I've managed to damage the engine on a track day at castle coombe possible poor quality oil I got whilst working at kwik fit 5w40 or oil surge.

Anyway I've bought a new ew12j4 engine that came from 607. It's the latest version that came with a plastic inlet manifold.

I previously had 174 bhp and 161lbft with gti 180(ew10j4s) Inlet and exhaust manifold, ew10j4s cylinder head and a janspeed exhaust. All running on gti180 engine management. Possibly a remap would have seen a decent power figure. 

 

Now I'm having another go I'm going a bit further. I've now had the pistons reliefs machined for exhaust valves. And I've had the combustion chamber welded up for more compression as the ew10j4s had more compression than the ew12. 

 

I'd like to know what I need to do to make this ew12j4 engine a 2.3. At 86 bore I'm not aware of any Peugeot pistons than fit 87 bores, I do not want to buy forged piston. Can a crank shaft swap do the job?

 

I've made a few ew12j4 videos on youtube showing what i know and done so far.

 

[dcc 855]

You need to go for 87/88mm pistons and custom rods, short of a custom crank.

 

Pistons are around 700 and rods vary from 400 for cheapos to 1800 for top quality.

 

I didnt know for any 2.2 with plastic inlet though

[Sp88 0]

Hi, I wouldn't want to do that. I would like to increase the compression, I've already reduced the size of the combustion chamber. I'd like to take some height off the block but I'm worried about the valves as the pistons already have valve reliefs. Is there anything else I can do before putting the engine back together? 

[dcc 855]

you're talking about spending a lot of money to do that anyway.

 

The ew12 pistons have a large dish when compared to the EW10j4S, i would first start with custom pistons which can then be designed to your required CR and sizable valve cut outs.

 

The EW12 has a very odd length rod too, which means off the shelf items are scarce and as such usually need to be made to order, increasing the costs.

 

building up the combustion chamber of the head will help your CR however the impact it will have on the flame/combustion itself, and may be more detrimental then beneficial. (you could end up impacting the pressure of some areas within the cylinder causing a poor fuel/air mixture burn.

 

your best bet would be to fit an EW10J4S head with the EW10J4 cam covers, 3 angle valve seats cut, clean up any casting marks, remove the VVT, fit adjustable pulleys and a set of aftermarket camshafts to suit.

 

the stock ew12 inlet is actually very good, along with the Ew10j4s exhaust manifold.

 

Oh also, ditch the balancer shafts

[welshpug 1,657]

standard compression is already 10.8 to 1 in that engine, so unless you go Daft with the cams you wont benefit a great deal for much more.

 

if you do go much wilder with the cams you will need uprated springs.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I agree that some of the recent posts are about a particular user's EW engine issues, and perhaps should be in a different topic. This topic I believe is aimed at discussing the EW engine's general merits in comparison with its countparts/predecessors i.e. the XU and TU.

 

I felt the original consensus was that the EW as a base engine was a better starting point. Of course this is made a little difficult in terms of fitment to any chassis designed for the XU and TU, but not impossible to get around. Regardless, the EW seems/seemed to better all round, at least with regards to the head, block and probably the crank; but it's rumoured to be weak with pistons (perhaps a la GTI6).

 

This makes me think a couple of things, perhaps not uncommon with many pieces of engineering, i.e. they need good design, then most importantly time to settle and be proven in the real world. Testing is vital of course, and more budget means better everything at point of delivery. Honda engines would perhaps be proof of that; but even they're not 'perfect'.

 

Does anyone really get it right? And what is right? GTI6 = the peak of XU, but with 'chocolate' pistons. Mi (alloy) = thrill but potential oil issues. GTI6 and EW = 'great head' (sniggers) but no oil issues, but both with the same piston issues the Mi didn't have. EW = Honda-esque bottom end construction and heaps of potential, IF you can fit it.

 

And beyond that, the video posted earlier just seems like an unhealthy engine. I'm sure in this case it's not the engine itself, which is what I think this thread is about. These latest posts seem to be more about electronic gadgets almost interfering with the engine doing its thing. No DBW as far as I recall on the XU. Are these issues not confusing what ultimately could be a better engine?

 

If an EW 2L or 2.2L is 'dropped' into a 205, 309, 306, Xsara or ZX, even as standard, e.g. a 160bhp 2.2 EW being put into something instead of a 160bhp Mi/XU9J4, is the EW a better overall swap or start point?

 

Beyond the above, are you better off putting in an old school (non EW) engine - which is easier to fit - and improving it, or going the harder-fitting EW route and improving on that. I suppose I'm asking what I think is the original question, which is is it time to move onto using the EW as the base engine, even in standard form, i.e. EW vs GTI6 or Mi, and making a performance motor from that? 

Edited August 18, 2018 by DrSarty

[petert 586]

Indeed Dr Sarty. The same delema faced by 55 Chev owners, who can't decide whether to put in a 283, 302,305,307,327,350,396,427,454,LS1,LS2,LS6 or LS7 and all the sub-varieties within.

[welshpug 1,657]

or a 535Ci alloy mopar..

[Sp88 0]

Someone needs to build one and do a comparison. The 205 and the 306 shared engines. The TU. The 306 and the 206 shared engines, the TU and the DW10 diesel. It really isn't nearly as difficult as you guys make it sound. Find a person to fabricate engine mounts where required. Consider the ew12 and ew10 the same for starters. So gearbox,shafts,mounting points are interchangeable. The early 206 was not multiplex so a gti ecu with a gti head or from what I've heard just gti cam carriers, will get rid of Vvt, an inlet manifold from the 206 gti or alloy ew12  with throttle bod are pre plex. For the cable operated throttle, the early Peugeots had an electric potentimeter which did the cable to electric conversion. A speedo cable box into the gearbox may work and the engine speed sensor should also may be 205 compatible if a early 206 gti one is used. 

Edited August 18, 2018 by Sp88
Grammar