Embrace The Ew!

[Anthony 1,003]

Seems that some people are getting side tracked thinking that the 138 head needs headwork, when Sandy's comments suggest that's not the case for moderate states of tune. Looking at it another way, the difference in cost between a 138 and 180 would pay for a set of cams (which Sandy cites above as a limiting factor) which potentially swings in favour of the 138 on a budget.

 

(either that, or if on a tighter budget, the difference goes a way towards the costs of 'bodies)

 

The 180 person will have spent more initially, and may choose to go no further; or they could buy/fit cams, ITBs, ECU, better exhaust etc.

180's are all multiplex management AFAIK, so it's not as simple as just dropping the engine in straight out of the donor car on OE management.

 

A couple of people on here have implied that multiplex can be configured so as that it doesn't expect to see the other devices on the bus and hence could be retrofitted into an older pre-multiplex car like a 205, but I don't know if that theory has ever been put into practice, and it's certainly not something that you can do without additional kit and - I suspect - a complete running donor car.

 

Thus realistically you're going to want an aftermarket ECU, and if you've got to buy that and pay for mapping, it almost seems silly not to put 'bodies on it at the same time...

[Cameron 16]

Yeah the miltiplexed wiring certainly complicates things and I imagine would put some people off!

 

Admittedly I've been thinking about this from an average Joe 205's point of view, rather than building a race engine. To me it seems that the extra initial outlay of buying the 180, and the work to install the multiplexed wiring, is worth it for a guaranteed 170-odd bhp. With a 138 you HAVE to spend money on it right from the word go in order for it to be worthwhile from a performance perspective - otherwise you'd just fit a XU10 RS - so probably isn't suitable for people just looking for something that's good out the box.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Agreed about the headwork Anthony.

 

It is worth noting though, as the 138 offers the platform or working canvas to explore new performance characteristics optimised for the application, that are perhaps not as readily available from the 180 head.

[Tesstuff 222]

Can I now be told where the numbers 138 and 180 come from please?

 

From my recollection it was released as a 206 Gti, no 138 mentioned. Then the follow up was called a 206 Gti 180.

 

So 138 is from where? Peugeot?

[welshpug 1,657]

yup, its not specifically the 206 gti engine, its found in several other pugs without the gti badge, which is probably why they are much more plentiful and significantly cheaper, whereas the 180 is found in the 206 gti180 and 307 CC 180, and the 307 Feline, oh and the C4 VTS.

 

There are other variants of the EW10, even a direct injection from memory though was canned not long after being introduced for some reason.

Edited May 17, 2012 by welshpug

[Anthony 1,003]

Refering to the power levels of the two engines - the original 206 GTi was 138hp ish (seems to vary by a few hp depending where you look)

[Tesstuff 222]

Right, just looked on Wikipedia and incredibly the 180 didn't refer to bhp or ps. It is actually Peugeot publicity BS!!

 

How can you compare power outputs of two engines when no one knows their true original outputs

[Cameron 16]

It happens all the time with production engines, just like fiddling fuel economy stats!

[welshpug 1,657]

yup, clio 172 is 169 PS, 167 bhp!

 

182 is 178 PS/176bhp.

 

 

thankfully with the 197 and 200 they are the true PS figures.

[Tesstuff 222]

Peugeot 205 1.9 Gti 130 PS when the whole of the UK thought it was 130bhp at the time!!!

[rallysteve 22]

Catcams info video on fitting of fast road cams and piggyback ecu to standard EW10J4 engine

 

Seems a good result for saying the manifolds have been mentioned as being one of the bigger limiting factors. As Sandy has said, the smaller valves/ports of the J4 opposed to the J4S might not be that much of a limiting factor.

 

Steve

[Tesstuff 222]

Nice post RallystEWe

Edited May 18, 2012 by Tesstuff

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

The plot for 'Sport' CatCams adding upto 23bhp and 24Ib.ft torque, in conjunction with aftermarket ECU.

 

I'm intrigued by the EW10J4 but can't help thinking a GTi6 would be a better proposition for my 205.

[dave205 19]

Very interesting thread so far

 

But, what cams are available for the 180 engine and what gaims can the give combined with and without other mods?

 

Also does anybody have any realistic information with regards to fitting these engines? ( issues like mounts, driveshafts, gearbox choice, master cylinder clearance etc etc). How much time and money is involved?

[welshpug 1,657]

Still not seen one up close, but what I know is:

 

top mounting, custom, , lower engine mount fork needs modifying, nothing drastic

 

shafts are standard, Gearbox - standard EW10/BE4 casing, BE3 can be re-housed but some parts not interchangeable.

 

not sure on master cylinder clearance, but would imagine it to be less of an issue than an XU due to the angle,

 

 

time - depends how fast you work, money, depends how much you want to spend

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

 

Also does anybody have any realistic information with regards to fitting these engines? ( issues like mounts, driveshafts, gearbox choice, master cylinder clearance etc etc). How much time and money is involved?

 

Have a read. Pics of EW10J4 stripdown, and further into the thread, a link to Hilgie's gallery showing him fitting one into a 205.

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=66077

[welshpug 1,657]

oh, the clutch operation, source a clutch arm from citroen from a cable operated BE4, and a berlingo/partner cable, plus a post 1990 205/309 clutch pedal.

[dave205 19]

So whats the difference between the be4 and be3 gearboxs? Is the be3 not a bolt on fit?

 

The engines dont sound like there to bad then? Gearbox side is just standard i assume?

And which driveshafts do you use?

 

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

So whats the difference between the be4 and be3 gearboxs? Is the be3 not a bolt on fit?

 

The engines dont sound like there to bad then? Gearbox side is just standard i assume?

And which driveshafts do you use?

 

Bellhousing bolt pattern maybe? Use the BE4 bellhousing with BE3 box. Means you can use 1.6/1.9 shafts depending on your hubs.

[Sandy 191]

There are a few gear spline and selector differences from BE3-BE4, that's all, the diffs and shaft fitment etc are basically the same. To use an EW, you'd have to use an EW gearbox casing, but the internals can be BE3 or 4. Mixing casings/bellhousings isn't really to be recommended, because they are line bored together and hence a matched set.

[dave205 19]

So you could use 1.9 or 1.6 driveshats with the be4 box? And they'd be the correct fitment?

[Sandy 191]

If you have the hockey stick bolt style rear EW mount, then yes, not sure about the half moon plate type because I don't know if the bearings are different on that one.

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

Mixing casings/bellhousings isn't really to be recommended, because they are line bored together and hence a matched set.

 

Really? Swapping the bellhousing has been mentioned on here a few times too! Apologies for the mis-information Dave.

 

I'll have to rethink this now, as I wanted to run a GTi6 box.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Alan_M

[dave205 19]

No worries allan, im purely just looking into this at the moment.

 

I have the hockey stick type mount, i'll try and upload some pictures later.

[Sandy 191]

Lots of people do mix the casings, but considering the way they are machined, it's inviting problems.