Bilstein Coilovers

[Gavin Waddell 18]

To all suspension gurus

 

I bought a set of bilstein coilovers for m car and have never really be happy with the handling, i wanted some group n shocks but the guy in the shop said they werent availble any more, so sold me these instead. They are 300/140 with a set of 7'' 285 springs, i found the car to be very understeery and very harsh and crashy, to cure this it would have meant buying fatter torsion bars but they are a bit pricey.

So i went and bought some 8''225 springs and fitted these, i still foung the car to be crashy and understeery a bit, i then decided to buy a bigger antiroll bar and fitted a 23 mm jobbie which helped a bit. This is as far as i got with the suspension and it pissed me off so i left it for a year.

 

Now the car is siting in my garage on axle stands with the suspension off as i was supposed to sell it to another forum memeber but unfortunately the sale fell through. i was going to buy standard shocks and lowering springs to have it as i had before.

 

Now that im stuck with keeping the coilovers (unless some here wants them they are in the for sale section) i would like to set them up properly for my usage, which will be fasrt road sunday drives there are some sweet raods over here.

 

Questions

 

1. What inserts are 300/140 tarmac or forest

 

2. what spring lb/length would people recommend

 

Thanks guys Gavin

[welshpug 1,655]

you dont mention the spec of the rear?

 

quite likely that the front damping doesn't match the spring rate very well, and that the mismatch front to rear of spring rates has led to the understeer.

 

sounds much like a friends rally car I have driven, 200 lb front bilstein coilovers, standard rear beam with challenge dampers.

 

 

my standard road car handled better!

[Anthony 1,002]

Surely it's no big surprise that it understeers and doesn't handle very well if you massively increase the front spring rate without increasing the rear to match? You really need to keep things in proportion, as with any modifications really. 285lb springs would want something in the region of 24mm torsion bars in my opinion - standard (assuming it's a 205 GTi beam) are 18.9mm...

 

Trying to compensate with a bigger ARB isn't really the way to do it either, although it will help to a point.

 

I've not heard of 300/140 inserts before and may possibly have been revalved, although I've not really investigated too deeply into all the various inserts that were available - 300/200 is tarmac I believe, and Forest 200/80.

[Gavin Waddell 18]

when i first bought the kit the guy i went to supplied the garage where i was working at the time and is very reputable over her in switzerland so when i went to him it wqs in good faith, the laws in over here for modifying cars is quite strict so i wanted to do things correctly. When he haded me a box with shiny coilovers and springs and told me it will handle like it was on rails iwas like wow,i was 21 at the time so young and naive. Suspension isnt really my thing im a boat builder.

i did some research on the forum and worked out that the front and rears where mismatched, and i needed fatter torsion bars but like i said they are quite expensive, so i thought that using 225lb/8'' springs would give more travel and a softer spring would match the back but i was wrong.

 

As far as the the 300/140 insert these are commonly sold in france from searches on the net. what do the numbers denote 300=? 120=? would they be inbetween tarmac and forest more road orientated. when i had them off the car i could depress the piston with my hand if that helps

 

It is a standard 205 gti beam just with a fatter antiroll bar bar.

 

All your points confirm what i thought was wrong, this has led me to leaving the car standing still for a year because i hate how it handles. What i am looking for is a solution to the handling. If this was your car what would you do?

 

Gavin

[205wrc 16]

PTS springs were/are available in.....

225lb x 10" - Tarmac

225lb x 9" - Tarmac

185lb x 10.5" - Gravel

 

Bilstein Inserts are....

250/120 - Gravel

300/200 - Tarmac

 

Tarmac springs are marked with a yellow stripe down the full length of the spring, and the gravel ones have a blue stripe.

 

Personally, I run with a full gravel set-up on the car, but it all depends on the road conditions where you live.

[Baz 421]

Alot of tarmac dampers were re-valved to suit Forest/Gravel applications, one of my sets is like this, sounds the same to me.

 

I'd try a much lower spring rate, like 180lbs, if that.

[welshpug 1,655]

I would try 180 lbs and 21mm torsion bars

[feb 47]

If you get softer springs you will need to wind down the rebound on the shocks (I assume only the rebound is adjustable?) to find the sweet spot of critical damping (it will be much faster/easier to setup if you get them on a shock dyno).

The only problem though is finding someone who has a shock dyno near you.

I met a guy who was developing suspension products for Subarus when I was at the Ring earlier last year, he was from Switzerland, I will try and find his contact card if I haven't thrown it away.

Edited January 9, 2012 by feb

[welshpug 1,655]

pug bilsteins are not externally adjustable.

[feb 47]

You learn something new every day

In which case a softer spring might help but you would benefit getting them on a shock dyno to find the appropriate spring for your dampers.

The car will be bouncy if the spring is too soft for the shock.

IMHO if the front springs and dampers are matched I would stiffen the rear beam to match rather than getting a set of softer springs that would (probably) be an unmatched set for the front dampers (especially since the dampers are not adjustable).

Not sure how to phrase it better but I guess you understand what I mean

Edited January 9, 2012 by feb

[welshpug 1,655]

yup, agree with you there, though you'd need to go very soft to match standard rears.

 

they can be re-valved

[Gavin Waddell 18]

Ok guys

So my suspension is not a gavel Insert nor is it a Tarmac insert. It is stiffer than gravel yet softer that Tarmac correct? Could the kit be a hybrid road set up, like I said I typed in the serial number in google and it came up with sites in francetbat sell them. The only difference. That I saw was that it wasn't a coilover spring but more of a triangular spring, guessing it use standard top mounts and 2 1/4 on the coilover if that makes sense.

 

My aim is not to spend more money on torsion bars, I would like to set it up using a standard rear beam just with the fatter antiroll bar which I already have.

 

Taking your collective advice I should look I to getting a set of 180lb springs, but what length 8-9-10'' .

 

Thanks Gavin

[welshpug 1,655]

if sticking with the standard beam I would fit standard or eibach springs, 180 IMO will still be far too stiff compared to the 90-100 ish lb's of the 18.9mm torsion bars (standard front springs are circa 100 lb's)

 

 

I wouldn't consider £200 for a pair of torsion bars from Anthony expensive in the grand scheme of things, especially given you have already gone to the expense of upgrading the front.

[SPGTi 2]

I have run bilstein coilovers with tarmac inserts and used 10" 180lbs springs for a number of years now. The rear is standard with 306 tarmac bilsteins (grp n mounts). I found that you need to make sure that the rear is standard ride height to give the rear shocks a chance to work. This is a road rally car but handles great on all surfaces and will easily allow you to "drift" on roundabouts (private road of course).

I have never felt the need to increase the rates at the rear for the multi surface driving that I use the car for.

 

Steve

[feb 47]

Everything is relative to what one is used to.

If one hasn't tried upgrading the rear once the front is upgraded he thinks his setup is the best.

Have you tried a car with e.g. 20/21mm torsion bars and 23mm ARB?

When you lower a car that has 4 springs do you only fit upgraded front ones and leave the rears as they are? Yes, there are stupid german makes that lower the front only (e.g. in BMWs) and leave the rears as they are and despite this get TUV approval

You may think it is OK until you have done all 4 and then realise the difference.

As welshpug has said 200 is not much when you have already spent for a good suspension and if you want to enjoy it.

IMHO you should first fit a pair of upgraded rear torsion bars (not sure what that would be, there was a thread with a table somewhere on here that recommends what torsion bars to have for what front springs IIRC) and take it from there.

Don't spend money on the springs until you have a matched rear, if the front still feels stiff you could try softer springs at a second stage.

Edited January 11, 2012 by feb

[Gavin Waddell 18]

I take into consideration all of your points and yes if you change the front change the rears. Previosly I had a cheap spax kit and that seemed to be fine no need to change TB. So I assumed this would be the same as I said I went to a reputable person, but then assumptions are the mother of all f£&l ups.

TBs are only £200 pounds which may be a couple of nights out on the town, but you have to consider I love abroad so one you factor international shipping which seems to be more when sent to Switzerland as we are not in the European union? Plus customs charges I rekon I will pay an extra £100 pounds just to get them over here si that changes things a bit.

I will go and have a think some more maybe I will offer my self a little post Christmas present:)

 

Thanks once again for all your advice and comments

 

Gavin

[Tom Fenton 1,540]

All your points confirm what i thought was wrong, this has led me to leaving the car standing still for a year because i hate how it handles. What i am looking for is a solution to the handling. If this was your car what would you do?

 

To directly answer the above question,

 

Purchase a new pair of Bilstein B4 dampers. Fit with Eibach -30mm springs. Ensure the rear beam is in good order. Fit new OE Peugeot rear dampers. Lower rear beam slightly from standard to match the front.

 

ENJOY!

 

I have done three cars like this for customers, all were an absolute joy to drive afterwards.

[feb 47]

If the ARBs cost 20 GBP then customs are cheaper.

I guess you still have to pay import duty on postage though so not sure how much this will help?

Edited January 11, 2012 by feb

[welshpug 1,655]

drive to the uk and get Anthony to fit them for you

[feb 47]

Lol, like some other people on here /whistling icon

[Anthony 1,002]

Tom raises a good point here.

 

Whilst upgrading the rear torsion bars to match the front spring rate is one option, the other is to change the front suspension to something that suits the rest of the car - either with considerably softer spring rates on the existing coilovers, or just swapping the whole strut for something like Bilstein B4's and Eibach springs which as he says is a nice combination that works well on the road.

 

In my opinion - and this might sound odd from someone who can get hold of uprated torsion bars - is that far too many people go completely overboard with suspension on cars that are used almost exclusively on the road and end up with a distinctly compromised car, and actually improving on the all-round package that Peugeot put together isn't easy.

 

The OP has discovered this the hard way, in that fitting something supposidly "better" has actually succeeded in making the car worse, because it's too stiff and mis-matched to the rest of the car. That's why it handled better on the Spax - the dampers themselves I really don't think much of and I'd certainly class them as inferior to the high end Bilstein stuff, but the springs included with the kit would have been far better matched to the rest of the car and for the intended application.