Track Brake Setup

[peterbardell 0]

Now i know this has been covered but I thought i'd post the results of a few hours research on here to see if anything if anything can be improved. The standard 1.9 Girling calipers and standard vented front and soild rear discs are up to all but the most extreme application (So in my case ... more than suitable for an Mi16 being used on the track and road)

 

So ... to update my unloved braking systems im looking at ....

 

Std 1.9 Girling calipers front n rear (Rebuild kits available from brakeint.com if required ... are these any good?)

Carbon lorraine RS5+ front pads (will eat discs) if i wanna pay a bit more or Mintex M1155's if i wanna pay a bit less.

Mintex M1155 rear pads

Std front n rear brake discs (Brembo or tarox from GSF)

Goodridge braided hoses

Halfords 5.1 brake fluid.

Replace compensators and renew old brake pipe.

Refurb master cylinder (any ideas on a good rebuild kit?)

 

I know its subjective but to all intents and purposes is this the 'best' budget setup available. Its seems there's more choice available for the pads and Pagids RS4-2's have good reviews ... and do DS2500 ... its seems the RS5+'s are one of the best so good enough for me

[Tom Fenton 1,540]

I found the standard 247mm brakes to suffer badly from heat, so took the very popular route of changing to 283mm discs and calipers from the 306 GTI6 along with a decent grade pad. This is all a bolt on fit to a 205 GTI 1.9, the extra disc size provides a better braking moment. Also do not forget some ducting work to get some air to them, this helps a lot.

 

Rear pads wise, I have never found myself needing more than standard rear pads on track. On a gravel car where you left foot brake a lot yes, but on tarmac not really, so save a few quid and use a good quality (Ferodo, Mintex) standard rear pad.

 

Master cylinder wise, for peace of mind, and for what they cost, buy a new Bendix replacement.

[Anthony 1,002]

I've run a similar but slightly lesser spec brake setup to what you're proposing for a few years now, and it's always been spot on for both road and track use with no fade and good cold bite.

 

1.9 GTi Girling front calipers with Ferodo DS2500 pads and standard disks

1.9 GTi Bendix rear calipers with Ferodo Premier pads and standard disks

New standard 20.6mm MC

Standard 1.6 GTi compensator (as my car started life as a 1.6)

Halfords DOT5.1 fluid

 

That's been good enough for quite a few UK circuits (eg Combe, Cadwell, Donington) and the 'Ring, giving a consistant and confidence inspiring pedal and both pad and disk life has been excellent. For an 8v or standard power Mi16 I would say that what you're proposing will be fine, but something with considerably more power (that will thus be going considerably quicker at the end of the straights) might need bigger brakes like the GTi-6 setup that Tom suggested above - I would suggest a larger MC if you go down that route, although it's not strictly speaking needed.

 

I agree with Tom that a good quality standard pad will suffice on the rear - Ferodo Premier is what I've always used, as they work well and are available off the shelf at Halfords for about £11 a set with a trade card.

 

I've not personally run the RC5+ pads that you're considering, but I've heard nothing but good things about them and is what I'll likely try next.

[Cameron 16]

Just out of interest, what do people do to sort out the front-rear bias after fitting GTi6 front brakes?

[Anthony 1,002]

Just out of interest, what do people do to sort out the front-rear bias after fitting GTi6 front brakes?

The last 205 I had running GTi-6 front brakes I just removed the rear compensators altogether, which seemed about right brake balance wise.

 

(it's exactly how my 306 is currently running too for that matter - GTi-6 front brakes, no compensators and standard rear calipers)

[oli-pug 6 2 Cars]

Doh

Edited December 1, 2011 by oli-pug

[oli-pug 6 2 Cars]

I currently just run standard 1.9 calipers. Mintex 1166 at the front and 1144 rears with OE plain discs. Rbf600 fluid, braided hoses and an AP bias valve. I find this ample for my gti-6 engined 205 which gets driven properly id like to think!

 

Tried the 283mm gti180 setup but found there was barely any improvement to be honest. Track capable pads were very expensive also!

[SurGie 54]

The last 205 I had running GTi-6 front brakes I just removed the rear compensators altogether, which seemed about right brake balance wise.

 

(it's exactly how my 306 is currently running too for that matter - GTi-6 front brakes, no compensators and standard rear calipers)

 

 

I did not realise that having the 6 brakes at the front does not need the compensators, what if all the brakes are 6 brakes, i assume they are all better with no compensators ?

[welshpug 1,655]

I'd imagine it not to be an issue till you need to really press hard on the brakes, as the 1.9 brake pressure limiter is a rising rate to a certain point.

 

the rear pistons of a gti6 are 32mm so you would have slightly higher pressure same as the front with its 57mm pistons, though as most run a 23.8mm M/C its not that much higher but the pad area and leverage is quite a bit higher on the front.

 

Drove a throttle bodied XU10J4RS engined 205 yesterday running S16 brakes with standard pads M/C and standard 1.6 rear end, worked well but couldn't really push them too hard due to the plastic tyres

[2052006 10]

Front:

 

1.9 calipers

RC5+ front pads

Brembo discs (GSF)

braided hoses

halfords 5.1 fluid

new m/cyl

 

Rear:

 

Standard disc conversion

Ferodo Premier pads

 

Works well on track, doesn't seem to fade. Works well enough from cold too, though significant improvement with a bit of heat in them. Only problem I have at the moment (and this is on the road) is suffering from severe judder on high speed stops (ie. prolonged use of brakes). Think this is probably down to pad deposits on the front discs?

[Cameron 16]

I'd imagine it not to be an issue till you need to really press hard on the brakes, as the 1.9 brake pressure limiter is a rising rate to a certain point.

 

the rear pistons of a gti6 are 32mm so you would have slightly higher pressure same as the front with its 57mm pistons, though as most run a 23.8mm M/C its not that much higher but the pad area and leverage is quite a bit higher on the front.

 

Drove a throttle bodied XU10J4RS engined 205 yesterday running S16 brakes with standard pads M/C and standard 1.6 rear end, worked well but couldn't really push them too hard due to the plastic tyres

 

The issue is that you're overworking the front brakes, so you go through pads, discs and tyres at a faster rate than necessary, the benefit is you might save money on the rear.

 

It's not an issue on the road tbh as you want the fronts to lock up first anyway, you still want that to happen on track but you won't stop as quickly as you could because the front will break traction way before the rear is at the limit. It's just inefficient I guess.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Cameron

[kyepan 291]

I would avoid the 283 setup, as it dramatically increases the unsprung weight and gyroscopic torque.. it will axle tramp more if you wheel spin, cause the suspension to work harder, accelerate more slowly and the steering will be noticeably heavier. All the weights are on the weights thread sticky.

 

get some very high temp fluid, AP racing do a dot5.1 and stick with the 247mm setup.

 

or bite the bullet and pay for some alloy calipers / bells if you want to go up a disc size without the weight penalty

 

Cheers

J

[Cameron 16]

How convenient, I have an AP racing (Lotus Elise) brake setup surplus to my requirements - some 6kg per side lighter than the originals.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

It may well 'dramatically increase the unsprung weight and gyroscopic torque' but I doubt many would even push the car to the limit, Trust me get in a car with a pro and you'll be surprised how much faster the car can go

[shalmaneser 26]

It may well 'dramatically increase the unsprung weight and gyroscopic torque' but I doubt many would even push the car to the limit, Trust me get in a car with a pro and you'll be surprised how much faster the car can go

 

people talk about this added weight effect of gti6 brakes but I really didn't notice it - brakes are much much better than standard though, which i certainly did notice. Using the original MC with GTI6 brakes was horrible though, much preferred the 406 MC swap many people recommended.

 

Brake balance seems OK to me with the 1.6 compensator and 1.9 rear calipers, I dare say I could do with a touch more rear bias but for a predominately road based car it's not something I worry about much!

Edited December 1, 2011 by shalmaneser

[Cameron 16]

The thing is it's like 2kg difference and that's about 5% of the unsprung mass up front. None of us mere mortals will ever notice it.

 

The way I see it though, is it's 4kg more weight on the car.. considering the lengths some people go to to reduce weight (such as turning panels into swiss cheese) it seems funny to me that they won't bat an eyelid about adding all that weight back in with big heavy iron calipers.

[Rippthrough 98]

I certainly noticed the difference with my discs vs the standard ones tbh.

[Cameron 16]

Congratulations on being superhuman.

[Anthony 1,002]

Isn't it more like twice that Cameron, say 4-5kg per side? I know a complete GTi-6 brake setup is something in the order of 26kg

 

Edit - just weighed a pair of new standard 1.9 and GTi-6 disks since I've a set here, and it's 4.2 vs 5.9kg each, so that's 1.7kg difference per side without factoring in the calipers and carriers.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Anthony

[Tom Fenton 1,540]

The GTI6 brakes certainly are a lump, and maybe I'm harder on brakes than others, but at say the Ring where you are stopping from 130+ mph a few times, and there are long downhill stretches, I'm personally not convinced the 247mm brakes are up to it.

[oli-pug 6 2 Cars]

I noticed the difference going back to the 1.9 setup and i'm mortal

[stu8v 68 1 Cars]

Does anyone make 2 piece discs for the gti6 setup?

 

A useful weight saving.

 

I personally wouldnt want to use a smaller disc setup as I'm quite hard on brakes.