4 Point Harness Mounting

[welshpug 1,666]

yeah they fit fine with certain cages and small mods to the seats, can't use them of course

[m_attt 31 1 Cars]

^^^ yep, there's pictures on the articles section of a omp cage with the rear seats and interior in

[Leon 24]

Rear seats work perfectly with the OMP cage. Don't have to fold them flat either. Sorry for the poor pics, they were taken years ago:

 

 

[matt.f 16]

Bear in mind this may void the cage's homologation though.

Correct for stage rallies,road rallies are fine.Not sure what the cars being used for

Edited November 18, 2011 by matt.f

[matt.f 16]

Seats can fit up or down with OMP cage,know one for sale if anyone wants one drop me a PM

[Karl 15 1 Cars]

thanks big help mate i dnt have reckliners lol i know this will be a squeeze getting in the back but it is doable as i know sum1 who had non recliners and still used the rear seats

Guys, aren't we getting a little OTT here? For those that have no idea, everything said here is plausible and i agree, but... nobody wants to advise on something that may be considered un-safe but lets be realistic, at the end of the day we all care so much about safety, we choose to drive 25yo tin cans made out of old coke cans. People are going to do what they want whether or not you would.

 

To the same degree I bet the majority mount your seats (standard or otherwise) on the crappy standard mounts without a second thought for them! I beg of you, lift the carpet back to check the condition of them. Seriously. Because ultimately THIS is what we're all afraid of and you'll probably find the key reason to most of these scare stories. Some of them even state as much!

 

 

Sit down, take a deep breath. My blue 205;

 

ALL Standard seats bar Driver's; FIA (fixed back)Sparco Rev bucket seat & TRS 6pt Harness.

 

Harness is affixed using the standard belt mounting points, RHS lap belt is in the driver's side lower belt rail fixing, LHS lap belt on the exhaust tunnel - hole drilled and proper harness eyebolt & spreader plate used.

Shoulder straps are affixed in the lower rear seat belt fixing holes, of which the angle is fine. RHS one is in the lower most-RHS hole on the inner rear quarter, the LHS one is in one of the centre holes for the rear seat belt buckles(check your eyebolts have long enough thread if you plan to do this, especially if you're leaving the std belts fitted too).

 

Angle is fine by then, basically when sat and in place, you want the belts to be on or pulling your shoulders, NOT the seat, this is what the guidelines aim at. All my standard belts remain in position and can be used if needs be.

 

It is NOT caged either.

 

What's massively unsafe about it please, for what legitimate realistic reason... I'm clearly not allowed to compete in motorsport with 4 passengers and i don't make a habit of carrying more than 2 on the road tbh, but if i have to, i can.

 

On the road i don't do up my shoulder belts of the harness as tight as possible as i would when competing, so i'm not held upright in the seat, but that's neither here nor there tbh. I also mount my bucket seats a hell of alot better than most do in 205's, my neck is basically almost in line with the window bottom and i don't like to lick the dash either, of course this is also luck because of my long-limbed stature, so it's tilted a fair way too, not only aiding in the belt 'angle' thing but so it's alot lower & thus further from the roof so even if i was in a nasty roll it'd have to almost completely squash the roof & pillars down to the window line to make me more than just 'uncomfortable'. 205's are not as weak as you think, how many of you have seen one after a generic roll, or even squashed one on purpose in some way? I have, the roof itself is weak, but the roof WITH pillars is not, the whole roof rarely squashes right down including the pillars. I'm not saying i'm not more at risk, but why do we all leave our beds if we live by 'what if?'

 

I also periodically check the condition of all the mounting points, (as do scrutineers and MOT testers) including & especially the seat mounting points under the carpet because i'm a bit paranoid about them because i'm well aware of how crap they are and how structurally ruined they can be by now, probably more so than most for multiple reasons.

 

Basically most people have common sense when it comes to stuff like this, so if you have to go to the extent of asking, the answer is usually 'no', but this one's a grey area IMO and i'd have to agree with the above seeing as i'm assuming you have reclining seats perhaps without proper harness holes - this does makes a difference, i don't think harnesses should ever be used without seats that can accept & retain them.

 

I won't advise you to do what you're suggesting, instead i'd ask you to consider changing the seats/harness for more suitable/capable/proven items & consider what the seat, harnesses and therefore you may do in an accident, any scenario, and then be aware of that and make your choice, as ultimately that's what you're going to do anyway, i'd just prefer that you were educated in your options.

[Karl 15 1 Cars]

yes it is a daily drive but practicality doesnt matter if it did i wouldnt of got a 3dr 205 ! as for the seats and harnessess its because there better and look better but i still want to retain the rear seats for passengers if needed

I don't want to launch an attack on you or anything, but why are you doing this? Keeping the back seats but having front buckets and harnesses I mean.. is it a daily driver?

[Cameron 16]

But your rear seat passengers are gonna end up with harnesses in their faces aren't they?

[harryskid 193]

But your rear seat passengers are gonna end up with harnesses in their faces aren't they?

 

Yes but their necks will come in handy to take up the slack !

[Karl 15 1 Cars]

yes i know lol but it shouldnt be to bad they can always look out window lmao was just wondering if doing it was safe mounting 2 belts off 1 belt mounting and i think its is

But your rear seat passengers are gonna end up with harnesses in their faces aren't they?

[Cameron 16]

I don't think it's safe to mount the front seats off the rear mount points if you have passengers in the back.. if you had an accident I wouldn't trust it to hold both people in!

[Baz 421]

1 x 16st rear seat passenger, standard belt layout.

 

1 x 9st driver + 1 x 7st passenger - proposed belt layout.

 

 

You get the point. They're built to withstand forces, whether or not they're split across 2 people or from different directions.

 

Despite the fact that it doesn't work that way at all because the loads are spread much better with harnesses and i personally actually only use ONE of the rear seatbelt mounts for ONE of my harness straps as said.

 

We could argue this until the cows come home, basically you wouldn't do something i do to keep my car legal for the road and competition without intending normal use... Fair enough, i totally see where you're coming from.

 

Just like i'd not drive around trackdays & the 'Ring with a half-assed dash, clocks and accessories dangling from tape and cable ties just inches from your face whilst you wear a mountain bike helmet in a car. No offence meant at all, but that's 2 very different opinions of safety portrayed there.

 

Sometimes we just don't realise something or simply do something for the 'right' reasons at the time even if hindsight says it was dumb, it doesn't mean it's necessarily 'wrong'.

[Cameron 16]

1 x 16st rear seat passenger, standard belt layout.

 

1 x 9st driver + 1 x 7st passenger - proposed belt layout.

 

 

You get the point. They're built to withstand forces, whether or not they're split across 2 people or from different directions.

 

Despite the fact that it doesn't work that way at all because the loads are spread much better with harnesses and i personally actually only use ONE of the rear seatbelt mounts for ONE of my harness straps as said.

 

We could argue this until the cows come home, basically you wouldn't do something i do to keep my car legal for the road and competition without intending normal use... Fair enough, i totally see where you're coming from.

 

Just like i'd not drive around trackdays & the 'Ring with a half-assed dash, clocks and accessories dangling from tape and cable ties just inches from your face whilst you wear a mountain bike helmet in a car. No offence meant at all, but that's 2 very different opinions of safety portrayed there.

 

Sometimes we just don't realise something or simply do something for the 'right' reasons at the time even if hindsight says it was dumb, it doesn't mean it's necessarily 'wrong'.

 

Ok..

 

1 - When have you ever had a 16st person in the back of a 205, crashed it, and had everyone survive restrained to prove this?

 

2 - How many 7st adults do you know, and for that matter, how many 9st? The average weight of an adult has to be something like 11-12st.

 

I think wearing a bike helmet in a car with a few loose switches is slightly different to having a rear seat AND a front seat passenger restrained by the same feeble mounting points! Not to mention the fact that the rear seat passenger will likely be garotted by the harnesses that surround him. Sorry Baz but your argument is ridiculous and completely unfounded.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Cameron

[Baz 421]

You're probably right then, because it's not an argument and you're completely missing the point anyway.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Baz

[Cameron 16]

What point am I missing?

 

You're expecting the mounts for one seatbelt belt to hold in 2 x 11st+ people in an accident, right? You can't seriously think that's safe?

 

Edit - and even if it is, which it isn't, what about the shoulder harnesses passing down either side of him?

Edited November 21, 2011 by Cameron

[welshpug 1,666]

same as one 22st person.

 

different issue to the garotting one mind !

[Cameron 16]

same as one 22st person.

 

different issue to the garotting one mind !

 

Have you ever seen a 22st person in the back of a 205 though, seriously? Without sounding harsh would one even fit!?

[welshpug 1,666]

yes actually, my mate Dan wasn't far off that not so long ago! he's not particularly a fat bastard, but a big bugger and plays rugby.

 

not had my mate Nathan in the 205 but was in my brothers 306 easily, he's double my weight (20 stone..)

 

Goliath Dogboy and Henry Yorke would struggle to get in the back, and they're not fat bastards, just tall

Edited November 21, 2011 by welshpug

[Baz 421]

Seriously?

 

You're assuming or just making things up. Sorry, but where did i say that? I'm certainly not, because again, i don't fit my harnesses like that!

 

If you're going to reply, keep it relevant. You've started babbling on about the legitimacy of people weighing certain weight and whether or not i've crashed and survived with those people in the car. Clearly missed that point if you're replying in such a manner!

 

Don't argue for the sake of it, go back & actually read properly? You replied without really thinking about it;

 

I don't think it's safe to mount the front seats off the rear mount points if you have passengers in the back.. if you had an accident I wouldn't trust it to hold both people in!

 

But you'd trust the rear seatbelt mounting points to hold one large passenger in? One large load or 2 small loads, they're exerting the same forces upon those mounts.

 

My point was in reply to your generalisation over having harnesses attached to the rear seat belt point and holding 2x 11st people or one 22st person alone, the difference and loading on those belt mounts will be the same, or indeed less than the single large load because of the harness spreading the load better. They're built to withstand a certain load, where that comes from or how is irrelevant isn't it, so whether it's one 22st rear seat passenger as you suggested, or an 11st rear seat passenger and an 11st driver is irrelevant. Of course if you weigh less or don't have your harness and rear seat belt passenger all being held in the same place you'll have a better chance of course.

 

But, again harnesses spread loads much better, that's the point of there being multiple points, therefore your point about weights is null and void, even if mounted as you're supposing or even the whole harness on the rear seatbelt points which'd be little hard, you're still not then going to see that whole 22st (or whatever) loading on ONE individual, or even across two points.

 

Basically you're now going to the extremes of suggesting we not only watch our weight but also bear in mind the weight of the passengers that we carry in our 205's too because they can't take it.

 

 

'My' argument is indeed ridiculous and unfounded as you suggest, because stating simple facts and pointing out flaws in others 'arguments' (as yo like to call it) isn't an argument and it's certainly not 'mine' when i don't care considering i don't mount my belts this way anyway.

 

 

I've no worries about the harnesses passing down either side of the passenger. Mine don't impede the passenger at all once they're in if they need to be in, but then i reckon you haven't read my posts properly anyway hence you're still aiming irrelevant questions at me.

[Cameron 16]

The point is, you stated that a rear seat belt is built to be able to hold in a 22st passenger in an accident as if it were a well known fact, like you have some experience / manufacturer data or something to prove it. That's why I asked you whether you'd had an accident with such a heavy person in the back and the belts had successfully retained them. It's not irrelevant, it's asking you to prove why you made such a bold claim.

 

My point is it isn't safe for 2 reasons - 1 that the mounting points are not designed to hold the load of 2 people, 2 that having a rear seat passenger straddled by shoulder harnesses is incredibly unsafe! You clearly don't have any idea of the forces involved in a car crash if you're seriously recommending someone to fit belts like this.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Cameron

[Baz 421]

I didn't 'state' that though did i. Whatever it was i did actually say though, i probably said it for the very same reason you made such a stupid un-thought out comment!

 

No, you're right, but i'll put it in very simple terms for you; the rear seatbelt mounts don't have eyes or a bloody brain do they, so whether or not they're holding one large person or 2 smaller is simply irrelevant FFS, you're making a stupid, irrelevant point, and i was picking at it for not much more reason other than that.

 

Again, you have reading issues. Either that or as i think, you just can't accept something coming from me, for some reason. But if you're going to keep replying directly to me, do it relevantly please.

 

Again because you seem to keep missing it;

 

I DON'T HAVE MY HARNESSES MOUNTED IN THE REAR SEATBELT MOUNTING POINTS.

 

And it'd be pretty hard to do so wholly.

 

And even if i did it would NOT be the same as one large passenger in the rear seat.

 

Please try and make sense of that before replying AGAIN!

Edited November 21, 2011 by Baz

[Cameron 16]

You have admitting you're wrong issues.

[205wrc 16]

This is how the harnesses were mounted in the ex-Richard Burns Challenge car.

 

[Baz 421]

You have admitting you're wrong issues.

 

I'm certainly wrong for giving you more credit than you clearly deserve.

[Cameron 16]

You should really get into politics..

Why go back and edit your reply instead of posting all that as a new one?

 

Anyway.. (I can't believe I'm going to waste my time doing this but hey, I've got the morning off work)..

 

Yes Baz, I understand that one 22st person is the same as 2 x 11st people FFS!

 

The point I am making, that you seem to keep missing, is how do you know that a 22st person can be held in by the rear belts? Call me a cynic but I don't believe Peugeot, in the 1970's, designed a car with the intention of holding a person of that weight in the rear seats in an accident. I asked you whether you'd known anyone of that weight to have been in the REAR seats in an accident AND been successfully restrained because that would back up your claims.

 

Now, before you click "Quick Reply" and start wildly smacking at the keyboard, please actually read what I'm saying.

 

I don't believe the rear seatbelt mounting points will retain a 22st person in an accident safely, which means I don't expect they will retain 2 x 11st people either. I KNOW that one 22st person = two 11st people, I didn't become an engineer by not knowing how to divide by two! The point is you cannot prove that the feeble little mounting points could hold both these people in! If you could, I'd believe you!

 

I'm not missing the point by saying this, if you want to tell me that it's safe to mount 2 people's seatbelts into a mounting point originally designed for just one, you'd better be able to bloody prove it! So far all you've done is chase this argument round in circles and insult me for asking you to do so!

 

The reason I'm chasing this point so much is that I don't believe we should be telling some guy that it's safe to mount belts in this way, especially when none of us would ever consider it! Fair enough mount the front harnesses to the rear mounting points, but don't do it while also retaining the rear belts and carrying passengers in the back.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Cameron