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lahondal

205 Turbo 8V Questions...

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lahondal

Hi!

 

I´m going to build a engine for putting it on a 205, with the following specs:

 

-Xu10j2TE block and head, stock.

-DKZ cam with vernier pulley.

-Garret T3 with custom manifold and exhaust.

-Megasquirt management.

-Custom inlet manifold.

 

Thats mainly the pretended specs, with some more modifications...

 

-I have in house a catcams valve spring kit, with double springs and race valve cups for Xu9 engine so, do you think the std spring are strong enough for reaching safely the 7000 RPM?, or its recommended to use that stronger springs?

 

-Another question, do you think its okay to lightening the flywheel? About 1kg or similar...in my old engine, 1.9 GTi, i did it about 1.2kg and there is a vast difference in engine acceleration, and no contras.

 

-And finally, do you think its neccesary to fit a external wastegate? I must build my own manifold and weld a EW flange its only a little more work.

 

Cheers, David.

Edited by lahondal

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welshpug

Doesn't matter if the springs aren't capable or 7k or not, you wont need to rev it that far, they run out of puff well before then with most cams that people tend to use.

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Tom Fenton

Why do you need to rev to 7000rpm, I think you will find the engine has run out of puff by then due to the cam.

 

SO if it must rev to 7000rpm, a different cam is needed, or otherwise reduce the rev limit.

 

A turbo engine makes its power by torque from boost pressure, not from turning to high revs.

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wicked

Power = torque * revs....

 

So for a lot of power, you need to maintain torque in the high revs...

 

It's a bit depend on which T3 turbo variant you choose, but most stock T3's don't hold boost(=torque) until 7000rpm on a 2.0.

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petert

The std springs are very good and more than adequate for the DKZ cam. Additionally, there's lots of machining and setup costs to install the double springs. As said, it won't rev past 7000 anyway.

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lahondal

I thought the combination of a DKZ cam (which in the original engine revs happily up to 6500RPM), and a 4wd cossie T3 turbo, (which have a 60 trim), do the Xu10j2TE reving up to 6500RPM. I made some calculations and this turbo apparently suits fine for this intended RPM, boosting 0.8bar.

 

But if you think this is wrong, I trust more in your wisdom than in my calculations.

 

So....which turbo do you think its okay for a intended power of 240-250bhp?

 

And, what about lightening the flywheel?

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wicked

The 60 trim T3 will do, but most T3's are trim 40 or 45 and won't make 250 bhp irl...

 

On my own Xu10j2TE with DKZ cam I'm building a TD04 with 15G wheel for the same bhp target. (Smaller and quicker spool than T3, still 280bhp capable on other engines)

Edited by wicked

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wicked

Td04-13G, found on subaru's etc, making 360 cfm

td04-13g-cfm.gif

 

Td04-15G making 428 cfm

td04-15g-cfm.gif

 

Your T3-60, making 490 cfm

t3-60trim-cfm.gif

 

You have to divide the CFM by 1.5 for max power, BUT you need to be sure that the CFM is reached the right pressure ratio.

And that is dependant on the flow through your engine; the Xu10j2TE won't make the 490 CFM at a pressure ratio of 2. It needs far more pressure to make 490 CFM, but the turbo can't make 490 CFM at pressure ratio of 3 for instance. (and that's why you want a 16v ;-) )

 

(The T3 trim 40 only makes around 300 cfm and not really an upgrade wrt the standard T25)

Edited by wicked

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jonnyturbo

im sure someone used a td04 on one of these engines but and just adjusted the standard exhaust manifold and made around 220bhp 0.8 bar with vems

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wicked

The engine itself (head/manifold/cam) is the limiting factor; you need to put more boost on it to make 250 bhp. A T3-60 can do more than 0.8 bar on this engine.

If you want to make 250bhp with 0.8 bar, you need an other inlet manfold and high lift cam. Raising boost is cheaper....

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jonnyturbo

there all factors including the turbo but is this really worth spending so much on? i may as well say this before anybody else but going 16v turbo will work out better for the future for you money wise but i personally hope you do it :)

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lahondal

So the best way is upgrading the engine flow, like in a NA engine, because I want keep the 8v head in.

 

But, I told I do the calculations at 0.8 bar, but I dont want this limit, 1.0 bar its ok too, or possible more.... :unsure:

 

So a T3-60 do the work, but only a t3-60 found on 4wd cossies, not the smaller t3 found on escorts mk3 RS turbo and other fords.

 

Again, I have readed in so articles and forums that lightening the flywheel on a turbo engine kill the torque. That is true or false?

 

Thanks all, you are helping me so much, here in spain there is not much infomation on turboing 205´s.....

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wicked

Lighting the flywheel has nothing to do with the turbo..

It will make the engine a little more nervous. The engine has to put less energy in the flywheel and rev more easily.

On the other side, on idle, it has less energy in the flywheel for a smooth run.

Taking of 1.2kg shouldn't be a problem if it ain't a problem for the 1.9 8v now...

 

If you don't have the T3 yet, I would advise you to have a look at the mitsubitsi turbo's.

I think they are better that the old fashioned T3's and easier/cheaper to find.

T3-60 are rare and considered to be special and therefore overpriced, for their performance...

Edited by wicked

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lahondal

No I dont have the T3 yet, I have a little T3-45, and i bought a cossie T3 on ebay, I paid it, but it dont arrive yet and i dont think it will arrive. I put a paypal claim.

 

So I do some search on ebay, and the mitsubishi turbos are a good/cheaper turbos, more than the T3 like you say. There are some turbos but, what do you think is best?

 

There are TD04, which are apparenly found on older EVOs and some diesels...

 

And there are TD05, which are found on newer EVOs.

 

Seeing the compressor maps....I´m thinking on a TD04 with 15g or 16T wheel....it will ok?

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whizzer71

We have one that makes 250 bhp and 280 lbs torque this is with T28 from SX200 and Technics exhaust manifold and std inlet manifold with modded S16 Throttle body, runs with Emerald management / 440cc injectors I have a copy of the graph somewhere will post it if I can find it.

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wicked

Evo's only have TD05's...

 

The minimal you need is a TDO4-13G, found on subaru's, to make 250bhp.

Everything above that will spool later, but with more high end power.

 

TD04's are found on many cars; look at the form factors and flanges and check which weld flanges you can get your hands on.

Keep away from diesel turbo's and chinese rubbish. Ebay is filled with chinese TD04's and TD05's; rather buy a second hand genuine one.

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wicked

@ Whizzer; did the 200sx T28 fit without modifying the bulkhead?

 

I've also a TT manifold and a GTI-R T28 (tb2804), but it hits the bulkhead.

That's why I started looking into TdoX'ses.

 

Foto-I7QDQHVD.jpg

Edited by wicked

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whizzer71

All fits fine in ours no issues, had to use a diesel servo though and get a specialist exhaust flange which we inported from an American company, down pipe was fabricated

 

Hope that helps

 

Tris

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lahondal

Hi!

 

I have an opportunity to purchase a friend´s turbo, a TD05 hybrid with 20g compressor wheels, TRIM 60, and exhaust A/R 73.

 

Will this turbo fit, its for a race car only, so if it spool up after 4000 is not a problem....but, will this turbo fall in surge?

 

Ah!, and do you think I can reach the 435cfm mark on the Xu10J2TE??

Edited by lahondal

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lahondal

Finally, although I knew It maybe will be a little large...I bought this:

 

4dgd0.jpg

 

Behind it, there is a Garret T3 which I already have.

 

I will try with it.... :unsure:

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wicked

@ tris: I found that the GTI-R version of the T28 has bigger compressor than the SX200 one.... Can you post the graph? I'd like to see the torque curve...

 

@David; that's a big one!! B)

I think you need a massive, square high lift cam and upgraded inlet to make use of it's potential. (640 cfm, but at 1 bar)

Increasing the trim often means generating more flow at the cost of max pressure (in mid range). Think it still can make 1.5 bar easily ;-)

You certainly risk surge but I'd give it a try for sure!! (with DKZ cam and upgraded inlet first)

What kind if flange does it have on the turbine? (I have a TD05HR-16G6 twin scroll in my shed (for future use), but it looks different...)

 

edit:

catcams has a turbo cam with 12.25mm lift: 4900360

DKZ one has 11 mm lift

or ask PeterT for expert advise...

Edited by wicked

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lahondal

I have the DKZ cam, and I´m planning upgrading the inlet with polished ports, custom inlet plenum and manifold, bigger trhottle body, and maybe 3 angle cut seats.

 

I´ll need cross fingers....

 

The turbo is a TD05H, with a .73 A/R turbine housing T3 flange, 20g wheel and a Kinugawa compressor housing.

 

If I have surge problems, I will sell it.

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wicked

If you have surge, maybe try a good boost controller first (to vary boost over rpm), before selling a turbo like that...

If it doesn't surge, it'll fly!!

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whizzer71
  On 12/5/2011 at 9:02 AM, wicked said:

@ tris: I found that the GTI-R version of the T28 has bigger compressor than the SX200 one.... Can you post the graph? I'd like to see the torque curve...

 

@David; that's a big one!! B)

I think you need a massive, square high lift cam and upgraded inlet to make use of it's potential. (640 cfm, but at 1 bar)

Increasing the trim often means generating more flow at the cost of max pressure (in mid range). Think it still can make 1.5 bar easily ;-)

You certainly risk surge but I'd give it a try for sure!! (with DKZ cam and upgraded inlet first)

What kind if flange does it have on the turbine? (I have a TD05HR-16G6 twin scroll in my shed (for future use), but it looks different...)

 

edit:

catcams has a turbo cam with 12.25mm lift: 4900360DKZ one has 11 mm lift

or ask PeterT for expert advise...

 

 

Finally found that graph, youll notice its a bit spikey, bloody thing was trying to climb out the rollers, it took three big guys sat across the front and even then it was a bit dicey !

 

Mark RR 16062010.pdf

Edited by whizzer71

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lahondal

That power figures are pretty enough for me, and for the gearbox.

 

It will be a tarmac rally car but I dont want to have wheelspin on all corners, the car is pretended no do no more than 190kmh, because in rally acceleration its far more important, as you know.

 

We will mount slicks, a 60/30 plate diff, Xantia Be3 casings, GTi 1.9 gearset and Mi16 CWP, gearbox cooling, and a good suspension setup (or we will try it), but this graph scares me, it makes me to think.....why so much power if we cant use it in race? Wheelspin......

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