Peugeot 205/309 - Balljoint Extenders

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

Hi,

 

does anybody know where i can buy balljoint extenders for my 205 GTI ?

 

Andy

[jackherer 543]

You can't AFAIK.

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

Really, why ? Not safe enough ?

 

Then i need another solution to get the wishbones parallel to the ground :-(

 

Andy

[Cameron 16]

They're a bad idea tbh.. The only way you're going to get better geometry safely is to raise the ride height, or manufacture some uprights that revise the geometry.

 

A guy on here is / was trying it and they kept failing.

[welshpug 1,646]

you could run different hubs, ive seen 405/6 and 307/8 hubs used on a few cars, the c2 rally cars later used them with an inverted balljoint as well.

[engine killer 6]

They're a bad idea tbh.. The only way you're going to get better geometry safely is to raise the ride height, or manufacture some uprights that revise the geometry.

 

A guy on here is / was trying it and they kept failing.

 

 

I am the one who failed and again.

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=120157&st=70

 

Will work on the 3rd attempt again. It will be a lot of welding and a few webs to support it. Since I am extremely busy on my work, so hopefully I can get it done before X'mas.

 

By the way, you don't mean you want the wishbones parallel to the ground, you want them pointing down, don't you?

Edited September 24, 2011 by engine killer

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

@engine killer

Yes, sure. I mean i want them pointing down a little bit :-)

 

But why will these extenders work with VW wishbones : click me ?

 

What do you think about modifying the subframe in a way that the wishbone is

on the inner side higher ?

 

Andy

Edited September 24, 2011 by andy0075

[welshpug 1,646]

there isnt enough space to do that, the driveshafts sit pretty close to the forward mounting point, and the chassis leg sits directly above the rear one.

 

just raise the ride height, you'll benefit from more than improved geometry, namely not having to run massive spring rates to prevent hitting the stops all the time...

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

there isnt enough space to do that, the driveshafts sit pretty close to the forward mounting point, and the chassis leg sits directly above the rear one.

 

just raise the ride height, you'll benefit from more than improved geometry, namely not having to run massive spring rates to prevent hitting the stops all the time...

 

Thanks for the explanation!

 

I don't need to raise the car because now it is high enough :-)

About -30mm lowered all around. Here you can see a photo on the main site : http://www.peugeot-racing.at.tf

 

But the problem is this : http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=131324&st=0

 

Last race i used no ARB at the front and 500lb/in frontsprings and the car handles a lot better, but at one sharp left - right

combination the inner wheels were in the air again :-)

 

So i need to go deeper or wider. I think deeper is cheaper ;-)

 

Andy

[Cameron 16]

Raising the roll centre is not gonna improve your roll-over situation, you have too high a CG and too much grip basically. You either need to lower your CG height, make the car lighter or go for some harder compound tyres.

 

It's a complicated balance.. lowering the roll centre reduces weight transfer at the expense of more body roll, but to keep good geometry you need to increase spring / ARB stiffness, increasing weight transfer again. Similarly raising it reduces body roll but increases weight transfer and the likelihood of rollover. Either way, to get good handling you pretty much end up with a situation where you have a lot of weight transfer and a higher chance of rollover.

 

Increasing track width should help if you can't reduce weight any further.

[engine killer 6]

But why will these extenders work with VW wishbones : click me ?

 

the material is the main issue. my 2nd attempt worked for a few kilometer. the theory of it is FINE but the material was not. the cnc shop here said even the stronger may also suffer bending. also, the extra bending force act on the original clamping point is another issue even if the material of the spacer is strong enough.

 

by the way, once you have the spacer installed, you also need to work on the steering tie rod and it's pick up point otherwise they will be running on a completely different arcs and cause bumpsteer.

[Cameron 16]

What grade of material were you using? EN19-T is quite a good spec at 700MPa yield strength, a good 2-3 times the strength of normal mild steel.

[engine killer 6]

What grade of material were you using? EN19-T is quite a good spec at 700MPa yield strength, a good 2-3 times the strength of normal mild steel.

I guess the one I have used is just mild steel. Anyway, will have it welded properly this time, don't want to risk my car, my life....

[Cameron 16]

Make sure you specify a good grade of steel too!

[Rippthrough 98]

If you're rolling over on the edge of the tyres (overturning) then raising the roll centre will make it worse anyway, not better.

 

You're no-where near using all the travel available and you're on hard springs on a smooth course, lower the car a couple of inches.

[stefan 4]

Focusing on what you can do with the current setup, I would go over the basic geometry of the wheels one more time, the toe in/out for example, just to make sure. Adding onto the previous posts, one of the things about using slick tyres that I noticed , is that the grip they offer can sometimes be to much for a given car. I used semi slick tyres on a 205 and realized that the car drives better in the rain then in the dry, which is absurd. What I believe is happening is that the enhanced grip of the tyre combined with the lateral forces that occur during cornering disrupts the geometry of the wheel even more, so you get a counter effect. The effect is of course more pronounced the worse the condition of the wishbones, etc. is. So, if you already haven’t done this, one off my next steps on a race car would be spherical wishbone bearings instead of standard rubber wishbone bushes. Sometimes less can be more, so 14 inch wheels and then further lowering the car, compensating for the wishbone upward level with different hubs etc. maybe could help. It’s not nice to see someone struggling with their car after such a long list of mods to the suspension. Best of luck!

Edited September 26, 2011 by stefan

[crf450 0 1 Cars]

My mates been using these on his 306 race car on slicks for years without any problems, we've just made another batch as Allanallan wanted some and couple of other mates wanted to run them as well,ours are made from EN24t.

Our adapters aren't our design they are copied from a design which has been used on 205/306 widely in racing circles for the last 15yrs or so.

Cheers Martin

[engine killer 6]

My mates been using these on his 306 race car on slicks for years without any problems, we've just made another batch as Allanallan wanted some and couple of other mates wanted to run them as well,ours are made from EN24t.

Our adapters aren't our design they are copied from a design which has been used on 205/306 widely in racing circles for the last 15yrs or so.

Cheers Martin

Do you mind if I ask for a picture of it? :wub:

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

My mates been using these on his 306 race car on slicks for years without any problems, we've just made another batch as Allanallan wanted some and couple of other mates wanted to run them as well,ours are made from EN24t.

Our adapters aren't our design they are copied from a design which has been used on 205/306 widely in racing circles for the last 15yrs or so.

Cheers Martin

 

Hi Martin,

 

please, can i see a picture of the extenders ?

Maybe you can send me a PM what it will cost to make a pair for me too :-) ?

 

@ALL

Thank you for your answers and ideas for me what i can try to find a good and driveable setup in the future!

 

cheers Andy

[crf450 0 1 Cars]

We've changed the design slightly on our latest batch which means they are just a bolt on part with no modifications to the hub needed, we just need Allan to test them which he'll be doing at his next track day then we'll be in a position to sell any we have left out of the latest batch, I havent give the price of them much thought but I'd say they'll be about £120 a pair. Allan or I will keep you informed as to how they go on.

Cheers Martin.

[EdCherry 34 1 Cars]

Crf450, im with the rest can I see a picture pretty please, even if it is the previous design.

 

Also are you still machining rear arms and front hubs?

[engine killer 6]

We've changed the design slightly on our latest batch which means they are just a bolt on part with no modifications to the hub needed, we just need Allan to test them which he'll be doing at his next track day then we'll be in a position to sell any we have left out of the latest batch, I havent give the price of them much thought but I'd say they'll be about £120 a pair. Allan or I will keep you informed as to how they go on.

Cheers Martin.

 

 

Thanks Martin.

 

Your preset price seems very very reasonable. My first attempt cost me already over £120! The second one cost slightly cheaper because it required less machining.

 

I will see how my 3rd one going along, if it fail again I guess I will go for yours one instead of spending time on the hassle.