Daily Ring Insurance

[feb 47]

Does anyone know of any companies/brokers that offer daily Ring cover?

A friend is going to buy a car from UK to import/drive back to Germany and wants to stop at the Ring on the way back but the Ring doesn't allow cars with temporary german plates (yellow/red) to enter so he is looking for a temporary daily cover.

What options are there?

Cheers!

 

Edit: a quick search revealed this: http://nurburgring.org.uk/insurance.php

Edited September 6, 2011 by feb

[Cameron 16]

This is interesting..

 

..in the UK there is case law that says drivers on track days accept the risks to themselves and their property and therefore normal liability rules do not apply. The track day organiser will have insurance for damage to the track and in case somebody hurts themselves as a result of the organiser's negligence.

 

..track days run under UK track day rules operate in the same way as UK track days; you are not liable for third party damage because everybody accepts the risk of driving on a closed racing circuit.

[feb 47]

Indeed.

At a last year's trackday at the Ring, during the 2nd day the UK rules applied, i.e. as above, each one pays for their own in case of an accident; which Ron (the owner of RSR) said it makes people drive less carefully/responsibly as it is more "selfish".

 

Whereas the 1st day the German rules applied, i.e. treated as a public road IIRC (despite being a trackday) police comes, checks who is at fault etc. which matches to what is mentioned in the article above "It is my understanding that the legal situation on track days run by German companies under their rules is similar to Touristfahrten sessions - ie you need third party insurance cover for any accidents."

Edited September 6, 2011 by feb

[Cameron 16]

I thought it was particularly interesting as an awful lot of people get flamed on forums for admitting they do track days without specific insurance, on the grounds that if they crash into someone else they'll be faced with hefty repair bills or personal injury claims. Seems this is all based on false grounds as, if everyone has accepted risk to themselves and their property by signing up to the track day, nobody is liable for anything!

 

Makes me feel a little better about going to track days without specific insurance, but also a little uneasy as all it takes is one idiot to mess up an awful lot of work! I've had a few close calls with morons too..

[Andy_C 50]

Currently trackdays fall outside any mandatory motor insurance regulations so you don't have to have third party liability cover. The circuit will be covered as will the organiser so that if they fail in their duty of care the claimant has a route to claim against them. However, if third party claims between participants were to be permissible then the trackday scene would become a lot more expensive and I suspect less popular.

 

The Ring is classed as a declassified toll road and as such IS bound by RTA (or German equivalent) laws so a UK insurer cannot refuse to pay a third party claim made against you.

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

The Ring is classed as a declassified toll road and as such IS bound by RTA (or German equivalent) laws so a UK insurer cannot refuse to pay a third party claim made against you.

 

I've read that, whilst the insurers will pay the 3rd party claim, they will then chase you as the 'insuree' to reclaim those costs. My current 205 policy does specifically state that it does not cover for the Nurburgring.

[Andy_C 50]

Excluding third party cover is in fact in breach of current EU statutory motor insurance regulations.

[omega 82]

i try to protect my ring by not eating curry

but when i forget i find that a inflatable ring is the best insurance.....

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Excluding third party cover is in fact in breach of current EU statutory motor insurance regulations.

 

That maybe the case but you are likely to have to go to court to argue it and it will be fought hard as the implications for the insurance companies of loosing such a case would be large. It is one of my major concerns when visiting the ring...

[Anthony 1,003]

Has it been proved one way or the other in court yet Andy thus setting a precedent?

 

Whilst I know that in theory you're covered 3rd party regardless of whether the 'Ring is excluded on the policy by nature of it being a German public road, I'm not sure that I'd ever like to rely on that theory if I were to say knock a motorcyclist down and seriously injure them - theory isn't something I'd be entirely comfortable being reliant on when there's a multi-million pound claim and an insurance company that's looking for a way to get out of it...

 

Whilst my policy doesn't specifically exclude the 'Ring like most do these days, the above is still something that plays on my mind whenever I'm over there, especially when every year it seems to get busier and accidents more frequent.

 

(edit - Rob beat me to it)

Edited September 7, 2011 by Anthony

[Andy_C 50]

Not 100% sure Rob/Anthony - will have a dig around.

 

The case which I think was posted on PH was and may still be getting handled by a UK solicitor, arguing that the UK insurer cannot try to recover their third party outlay from their own policyholder, having been forced to cough up by the aforementioned EU law.

 

There's 2 ways to view this - either incredibly daft EU laws (quel surprise) deftly manipulated by Za Germans as let's face it the Ring isn't a road, regardless of how many Polizei patrol, film etc. I don't remember F1 cars ragging up and down the M1 in years gone by - although an M25 race might be a giggle.

 

Or it's simply a normal road accident on a German road, nowhere near the Ring - dodgy, faudulent and not recommended in the slightest (unlike one track broker who used to suggest that you simply dragged your car out of the circuit and claimed that you'd bent it on the nearest B road...!!)

 

My official answer to any client asking me about it has to be that it cannot be excluded under EU law but a claim would more than likely mean that renewal terms would not be offered next time around. To be fair, most of my clients who do drive there are doing so under formal race conditions so the whole third party cover issue becomes redundant anyway as it then becomes a race track operated under the auspices of the FIA.

[Anthony 1,003]

There's 2 ways to view this - either incredibly daft EU laws (quel surprise) deftly manipulated by Za Germans as let's face it the Ring isn't a road, regardless of how many Polizei patrol, film etc. I don't remember F1 cars ragging up and down the M1 in years gone by - although an M25 race might be a giggle.

Something like the IOM TT circuit is probably the closest example to home, as that's regularly used as a race track, yet is a road at other times. Monaco is prehaps another well known one. The difference is that they are both clearly "roads" in a conventional sense, whereas the 'Ring... well, you'd be hard pressed to argue the case beyond the stated legal position.

 

Or it's simply a normal road accident on a German road, nowhere near the Ring - dodgy, faudulent and not recommended in the slightest (unlike one track broker who used to suggest that you simply dragged your car out of the circuit and claimed that you'd bent it on the nearest B road...!!)

That would seem especially silly at somewhere like the 'Ring given the number of photographers and people taking videos that are there during TF (public) days - you've only got to look on YouTube or the dozens of Ring photo sites to see plenty of pictures of accidents with the numberplates clearly on show.

 

You could probably get away with it on a UK trackday I'd imagine, although clearly it's still just as fraudulent. Certainly I know of people that have mysteriously "broken down" just outside UK race circuits with blown engines and so forth and deny all knowledge of being on track when the breakdown company arrives... and whilst not identical, it is on similar lines.

[P_Monty 2]

I don't remember F1 cars ragging up and down the M1 in years gone by - although an M25 race might be a giggle.

 

Weren't there cases way back when of race cars having unofficial tests on the M1 which helped to bring about the 70 limit (in addition to petrol rationing) or is that an urban myth ?

[Andy_C 50]

Weren't there cases way back when of race cars having unofficial tests on the M1 which helped to bring about the 70 limit (in addition to petrol rationing) or is that an urban myth ?

 

It was q competition spec AC Cobra as I recall. 178 mph or something

[feb 47]

I imagine the fact that German insurance companies are by law required to cover you 3rd party at the ring and the fact that it is a derestricted toll road make it difficult for a UK insurance company to try and recoup their costs from their customers in case of a payout (unless explicitly stated that it is forbidden and even if it is a TF it may be difficult) but I wouldn't like to rely or experiment with this theory as Anthony said.

[2-Pugs 57]

There are some good threads on PH on this subject. Worth a read. My thought on driving the 'ring used to be that I would never drive a car I couldn't afford to loose around there. Having read the posts and been there a few times my view has changed. Now I am not sure I ever want to drive a car - any car - around there. The expense if something goes wrong is mind boggling. I read somewhere that a good analogy is that you have an unlimited overdraft. In the event that you cause a serious accident, everything will be paid for some how or another, but you'll ultimately have to .pay it all back. Another analogy was that you are not just risking everything you own now, but everything you'll ever earn in the future. As Anthony said, I wouldn't want to end up fighting it out in court. It seems too big a gamble.

 

So call me a wuss but I'm too risk averse for a gamble like that. It is still an awesome place and I love going there but for me personally, I'll stick to the Ring Taxi, wandering round the various vantage points getting snaps, soaking up the atmosphere and having steak on a stone from now on. it's still worth a trip there for that!

[feb 47]

That's why I think trackdays at the Ring are a safer bet.

In TF there are a lot of lunatics.

Edited September 13, 2011 by feb