[engine_work] Xu10J4Rs Gti6 Engine Rebuild

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Hello!

 

Here's a project me and my mate (hovis16 on the 6 forum) have started, his 306 gti6 got written off by some stupid old man and managed to buy the car off the insurance company.

He bought a black 306 rallye off his cousin (lotek) and the engine had seen better days, it's puffing out ALOT of petrol vapour out the oil breather into the catch tank. No idea on the history of the engine, but on the bright side it's got a set of aftermarket cams but it's not mapped right at all.

Also the richw pas pump relocating kit has not been installed properly and the belt squeals like a pig in a grinder.

 

 

So because of this we have decided to rebuild his old engine, which was in reasonable nick and install it into the rallye

It had a good compression and didn't burn oil, so i believe the rings are in good nick. It does puff blue smoke on gear change and I've put this down to the oil stem seals.

 

Started to strip it down, all well but then found the wrong head bolts have been used (from what i've seen) and a composite gasket has been fitted Odd as there's no mention of it in the service history.. everything else has been mentioned.

 

 

It's started to deteriorate and evidence of it affecting the combustion chamber, as the exhaust manifold was burning different in colour slightly.

 

 

How it stands now:

 

 

Bit of shoulder wear on some of the bearings!?

 

 

Edited August 27, 2011 by Paul_13

[welshpug 1,657]

for the sake of £50 id stick some rings in there seeing as you have it apart, be a good idea to have the valve cutouts enlargened too seeing as it has aftermarket cams ...

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Money is short for him mate, rings were £120 from Pug plus a hone all adds up. Don't know where you got £50 from!

A mate of mine Ryan has done the same (bought a second hand bottom end and used existing rings) and it's going fine. In an ideal world with lots of money yes, but that's out the question.

 

And it's not having the after market cams in there, didn't say we would be putting them in As i have established aswell as ryan_stdt you can get away with a reasonable skim using the standard head gasket/cams and not have any problems.

Just a lightened flywheel and pulley is being fitted.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Paul_13

[welshpug 1,657]

£50 = not from peugeot, rofl and a hone costs nothing if you do it yourself, its very easy

 

though the mains were only £25 from pug (j4r std)

 

as for the cams, you didnt say you were not using them.... having seen the engine sandy took apart after having a skim and failing, i really woulndt risk it....

 

on a budget its all the more reason to rake your time and do things properly imo, saves any expensive failures in the long run

Edited August 28, 2011 by welshpug

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

£50 = not from peugeot, rofl and a hone costs nothing if you do it yourself, its very easy

 

though the mains were only £25 from pug (j4r std)

 

as for the cams, you didnt say you were not using them.... having seen the engine sandy took apart after having a skim and failing, i really woulndt risk it....

 

on a budget its all the more reason to rake your time and do things properly imo, saves any expensive failures in the long run

 

Good luck trying to find the correct rings, I tried ordered the right set and the wrong ones came through twice. It is known that it is hard to get hold of the correct rings for this engine, alot of places give you XU10J4 rings and i'm not mismatching rings off different engines.

 

I didn't say I was using the cams, clearly said we were rebuilding the old engine and putting that complete engine into the rallye.

I've spoken to Miles about that engine Sandy had fail and he said it was using aftermarket cams not standard cams.

 

I've had/worked on 3 engines that have had a skim and using the standard gasket and have been fine. It seems alot of what you say is not from personal experience but only what you read which may of been wrong in the first place.

 

Ryan's engine is running fine, compression is good and that was using as said a 2nd hand bottom end and a skim. All the head work was done by Miles, why would he recommend using a standard gasket with a skim and know it's going to fail?

 

Do us a favour and stop spamming my thread

[Anthony 1,003]

though the mains were only £25 from pug (j4r std)

That's big-end shells that are that price (£25+VAT) - the mains are a little over twice that at £53+VAT, although that's still pretty reasonable.

 

I didn't say I was using the cams, clearly said we were rebuilding the old engine and putting that complete engine into the rallye.

I've spoken to Miles about that engine Sandy had fail and he said it was using aftermarket cams not standard cams.

 

I've had/worked on 3 engines that have had a skim and using the standard gasket and have been fine. It seems alot of what you say is not from personal experience but only what you read which may of been wrong in the first place.

With regards skimming, IMO you're both correct.

 

A standard engine, with standard cams set at standard timing, will be fine with a head that's been skimmed.

 

An engine that has aftermarket cams with more lift @ TDC, or standard cams that have had their timing advanced (as you'd perhaps want to if you were running throttle bodies for example) is rather more ill-advised on an engine that's had a noteworthy skim, as piston-valve clearance is already very tight on the XU10J4RS engine

 

If you're confident that you're only ever going to run standard cams and timing, then build it as-is, but if there's a chance that you're going to want something with more zing in the future, then it would be worth considering either enlarging the valve cutouts slightly, or using a slightly thicker (repair) headgasket to give you back some piston-valve clearance lost by the skim and prevent having to whip the head off again in the future.

 

Also, worth remembering that if you've opened up the engine to find a pattern headgasket, that it has likely already been skimmed atleast once in the past. At the very least it would be wise to measure and check how much has been skimmed off previously and adjust your plan accordingly.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

You will find both male and female Torx bolts on these, Quite common, the Male ones I prefer as the socket has more to grip on but I have had these snap off when removing after a few years.

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Did some more work on the engine.

 

Took off all the ancillaries/thermostat housing, looks surpirsingly clean in the water ways!

 

 

Undone the carrier bolts in order and went over them in several passes to make sure nothing was left under stress. Prior to this I ensured the cams were left in a safe position before I undone the cam pulleys. Don't want valve contact now do we! The cams were left near the timing hole marks so it was easy to time again.

 

 

I started to take one of the lifters out and use the valve removal tool, but as it was poor light I left it. Don't want to bugger anything up.

 

Pic of the underside of head, a few of the valves look darker than others.

 

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Took the valves out today, found what looks like to be a bit of wear in the tappet seat. What do you guys think? Is this normal?

 

 

Valves out

 

 

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

My mate decided to send the head off to Miles, and we're picking it up tomorrow.

Also dropping the crank down.

 

This rallye has turned out to be a nightmare, he bought it off his cousin and it's f*cked. Everythings wrong with it from rear beam to blown headgasket! Not how you treat family when you know it was going to happen.

 

These are the pictures of the engine we took out of the rallye, was hoping to save a few bits but it's all scrap by the looks of it.

Heads warped like a banana

Crank's quite scored,

Oil sprocket has 3 teeth missing

You can see the tide marks of coolant in 2 of the bores

Power steering pumps cracked

Coolant in the exhaust manifold

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Engine out

 

 

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Quick question saves starting a new thread.

If the cams are apparently regrinds, will I need to do what Anthony has done with his and flatten back the face of the buckets?

Or use the buckets out of the engine the cams came out of? But these haven't been checked for tolerances.

 

If the cams have been used in the past will they need to be bed in?

[kyepan 291]

i didn't but refacing them is generally a good idea to give the cams a clean surface to bed against.

[welshpug 1,657]

If they're already used then I dont think you need to do it, but then as Justin said it wont do any harm if they are not matched, its wiose to strip each one down for a clean whilst you have it all apart anyway, there's a guide on PeterT's site but it really is quite easy

[Anthony 1,003]

Heads warped like a banana

Crank's quite scored,

Oil sprocket has 3 teeth missing

You can see the tide marks of coolant in 2 of the bores

Power steering pumps cracked

Coolant in the exhaust manifold

WTF? The warped head and resulting coolant in the cylinders and manifold I can understand, and even to a point the cracked PAS pump... but teeth broken off the oil pump sprocket?

 

If the cams are apparently regrinds, will I need to do what Anthony has done with his and flatten back the face of the buckets?

Or use the buckets out of the engine the cams came out of? But these haven't been checked for tolerances.

Providing that you keep the cam together with the matching buckets and in order, it will be fine.

 

If you're swapping the buckets around, best off prepping them to ensure that the face is true and that the cam will bed in nicely.

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

^In other words it's a bodge, must of dropped the sprocket when the engine was put together. It's a different engine to the original one at my guess.

Mileage isn't what it should be, the clocks are out of a Ph2 where the car is Ph3... So we don't know how many miles are on the car.

 

Any body know what these marks are?

 

 

Valves are sticking out unevening, due to the hydraulic tappets sorting themselves out. We cranked over the exhaust cam a few times by hand without the inlet in place to check this and they evened out after a good few turns.

 

 

Exhaust cam in place, we flatted off the top of the buckets before hand

 

 

Due to my mate being distracted while moving the piston up the bore, the top ring popped out the bore D'oh! Off to borrow a mates piston ring tool

 

 

Done!

 

Edited September 24, 2011 by Paul_13

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Polished cam covers in the making

 

 

Uprated big end bearings courtesy of Miles (Pugracing)

 

 

Crank had a bit of work by Miles aswell, the main end journals are 0.3mm undersize the big end journals are standard

 

 

Shiny bits

 

 

 

 

Repair headgasket from Pug

 

 

That is all

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Loads more progress made today:

 

 

Inlet cam fitted aswell, both pulleys timed up and all ancilaries on the head fitted

Carefully made sure no valves clashed

 

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

 

 

 

State of oil sprocket that came out the rallye

 

 

 

 

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I'm going to state the obvious here, That's not a MLS gasket which the 6 lump should have

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

It's a thicker pug gasket for the xu10j4r, as they didn't do multi layered ones for a 6 from pug.

He's going to be using an inlet cam at some point so wanted clearance

[welshpug 1,657]

the standard one is but I'm not sure about the repair gasket, 0209 T9 is the part number, its 1.4mm over 1.2mm.

 

That's listed for the RS engine in the ZX BTW, Peugeot never listed a repair gasket for the RS, though the same one is listed for the RFV 135 engine.

Edited October 4, 2011 by welshpug

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

We just checked the part number and that's the one we have WP

[allye 530 3 Cars]

Why not get the correct multi layered metal one from a motor factors?

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

the standard one is but I'm not sure about the repair gasket, 0209 T9 is the part number, its 1.4mm over 1.2mm.

 

That's listed for the RS engine in the ZX BTW, Peugeot never listed a repair gasket for the RS, though the same one is listed for the RFV 135 engine.

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Relocating kit belt setup

 

 

Loom on

 

 

 

 

Engine is in the car now, in the process of reconnecting the coolant pipes etc.