Gti 6 Sump On Mi16 Engine Which Dipstick

[RichMI16 0]

I have fitted a gti 6 gearbox on my MI16205. It currently has a mi16 sump fitted but i have heard the gti 6 sump is baffled reducing the oil surge problem on the MI16. Also it would fit to my gearbox properly and solve the flywheel cover problem. Is it a good thing to fit a GTI6 sump over the MI one?

 

I am missing the dipstick tube from the MI engine and Citroen told me they were no longer made. Can i use a gti 6 dipstick and tube or do i need a mi16 one?

 

thanks

[welshpug 1,661]

mi16, gti6 is longer and wont fit the tube

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

Maybe the XU7J(P)4 tube will fit; the bottom end has some similarities with the 1.9 Mi16..... ???

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

Your Mi engine is missing the whole metal tube from the block?

 

The XU7 one is also totally different to the Mi one & I don't think it would be suitable, ideally you need to find the correct one for the Mi block.

 

As said, stick with the correct dipstick for the engine & see where the oil level sits when you have the GTI-6 sump on & if needed make a fresh mark to show the correct level.

 

g

[Anthony 1,003]

As said, stick with the correct dipstick for the engine & see where the oil level sits when you have the GTI-6 sump on & if needed make a fresh mark to show the correct level.

Surely providing that you've got the correct dipstick and tube for the engine, it makes no odds what sump is fitted?

 

The only time you'd normally need to re-mark the dipstick is if either the dipstick and/or tube is incorrect for the engine, meaning that the min and max markers are higher or lower in the sump than they should be. The depth, shape, or capacity of the sump is largely irrelevent, as all that changes is the quantity of oil required to bring it upto the required level.

[kyepan 291]

as above really, the dipstick still tells you if the oil is high or low relative to the pickup.. it will just have more oil underneath (if you fit the spacer)

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

Surely providing that you've got the correct dipstick and tube for the engine, it makes no odds what sump is fitted?

 

The only time you'd normally need to re-mark the dipstick is if either the dipstick and/or tube is incorrect for the engine, meaning that the min and max markers are higher or lower in the sump than they should be. The depth, shape, or capacity of the sump is largely irrelevent, as all that changes is the quantity of oil required to bring it upto the required level.

Yeah, got my wires crossed, early morning sluggish brain, coffee not kicked in yet.

 

It'll depend if the overall depth of the sump is the same the nothing will change, only mark it if you need to should you end up swapping dipsticks & tubes because it might not match the original dipstick / tube levels, although Id try to get the proper Mi tube somehow.

 

Considering how much mention oil surge on the Mi16 gets, making sure its at the right level on the dipstick is always a wise choice imo, whatever the sump, stick the original engine oil capacity in (5.5l iirc) & see if its different & adjust to match.

 

g

[RichMI16 0]

Thanks it makes sense that the sump will make no difference but i was hoping the gti6 tube would fit as it will be easier to get one. Is the GTI6 sump a good thing to fit to a MI engine? i dont think it has the cooling fins on the bottom though i cant imagine they do much and i think it is a baffled sump.

 

Kyepan- Please explain what is meant by fit the spacer. I know the mi sump had a spacer not sure about gti6.

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

He's on about the mi sump spacer mate.

I asked kyepan about this for a mates engine and he said you will have to get some longer bolts to accomodate the 6 sump (retaining the mi sump spacer)

This was so more oil can be used.

 

Might be worth also putting the oil pump baffle plate off a 6 pump onto yours. It's a plate about 6"s long and fixes onto the pump through the bolt holes that hold it together.

 

Maybe worth using a 6 oil pump sprocket as well? (more teeth)

 

Give the pump pickup a clean out while your there.

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Can you not swap the 6 tube and dipstick over to the mi engine?

May require a bit of bending, but I swear the diameter of the bottom (where it goes into the block) is the same?

[Anthony 1,003]

He's on about the mi sump spacer mate.

I asked kyepan about this for a mates engine and he said you will have to get some longer bolts to accomodate the 6 sump (retaining the mi sump spacer)

This was so more oil can be used.

However, the crucial detail missing from this is that you also need to extend the oil pickup using one of Petert's kits for the extended sump setup to be of any use - there's absolutely no point whatsoever in having more oil capacity in the sump if it's below the point at which the oil pump can pick it up!

 

You use the bolts from an Mi16 alloy sump when going down this route btw, but two of the bolt holes on the GTi-6 sump need modifying.

 

Most people that use a GTi-6 sump do so on its own without the Mi16 spacer plate, which gives you approximately the same oil capacity and no alterations required to the oil pump to make it work (GTi-6 sump is the same depth as the Mi16 sump plus spacer combination).

 

You use the bolts from the GTi-6 sump if you're going down this route.

 

As Paul says, use the oil pump baffle along with the sump - the sump baffles one side of the pickup, and the oil pump baffle does the other side.

[RichMI16 0]

Thanks making alot more sense now. So will the baffle plate attached to gti6 oil pump fit directly to a mi16 pump? Paul_13 said "Maybe worth using a 6 oil pump sprocket as well? (more teeth)" does he mean on the crank side as more teeth on the pump would slow it down. Is spinning the pump faster a good mod and is putting the gti 6 pump spring worthwhile?

[Anthony 1,003]

The casting of the two pumps is pretty similar, so yes, the oil pump baffle will fit the Mi16 pump, and the 6 bar oil pump spring will fit too.

 

The 26 tooth XU10J4 sprocket in question is indeed the crank one and fitting it increases pump speed and thus flow.

 

Both the sprocket and spring are worthwhile doing whilst it's in pieces - the chain is different as well to suit the larger sprocket.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

The Mi16 pump probably won't have the threads for the chain guard bolts but the baffle plate will fit straight on to any xu oil pump I've seen.

 

It would be worth sourcing the whole lot, GTI-6 sump, oil pump with baffle plate & cog guard, crank pinion with chain & do it all if you can rather than bits imo.

 

g

[kyepan 291]

But back to the original question, will a 6 stick fit into an extended mi-16 sump ? I guess there is only one way to test.

[Anthony 1,003]

The issue isn't it fitting as such (although that's clearly a consideration) but rather that different dipsticks have the min/max markings at different places on them, meaning that unless you mark it based on the correct dipstick for the engine, you're likely unwittingly over or under filling the sump.

[welshpug 1,661]

if you use a gti6 tube yes, but not an MI16 tube.

 

plastic top with an o-ring, not a rubber top.

 

extension of the sump wont affect things as the maximum filling level will be at the same point.

 

 

I see the 1.9 mi stick is NFP, but still worth trying to get hold of one, 1172 99.

 

if your local dealer isnt the best at trying to get hold of stuff try and speak to ed or steve at warners in Tewkesbury, or Jeff at Lookers in Cardiff.

 

oh and servicebox says they are 491mm long.

Edited January 3, 2012 by welshpug

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

I think the actual hole in the block for the dipstick tube are at different heights (mi vs 6)

[welshpug 1,661]

quite likely, especially given the mi goes in at the rear and the gti6 at the front, and one is alloy the other iron.

 

 

8 valve stick is still available but I can't remember how long it is.

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

They're both on front of block. Both come up inbetween the inlet manifold

This is the 1.9 mi not 2.0

Edited January 3, 2012 by Paul_13

[welshpug 1,661]

shows how crap the diagrams on servicebox can be and how long its been since I've worked on a 1.9 MI Edited January 3, 2012 by welshpug

[IanH 1 1 Cars]

Got a question:

 

I'm in the middle of rebuilding an Mi16, and will be using a GTi6 sump along with an mi sump spacer for the extra oil capacity, and the attempt at mounting the GTi6 windage tray to the spars as per Peter T's example.

 

I understand that the oil pump pickup needs to be lowered by 15mm due to the extra 15mm afforded by the sump spacer, and the normal thing to do seems to be getting hold of or fabricating one of Peter T's pickup extension rings. Looking at the pickup, the top cap (or bottom when its fitted) is simply a piece of stainless steel with a roughly 20mm hole through which oil is sucked up. Would it not be easier just to weld on a 15mm steel extension tube to this pickup inlet hole, thereby having the other end of this tube sit 15mm lower in the oil, rather than go along the tig welded ally pickup extension route?

 

I am prepared to for name calling and the general abuse this post might warrant, as long as I'm told why no-one does this

Edited March 28, 2012 by IanH

[petert 588]

No, it's a good idea. User JeffR posted some pics of his version of the tube extension. I have no idea where however.

[S@m 156]

I see the 1.9 mi stick is NFP, but still worth trying to get hold of one, 1172 99.

 

if your local dealer isnt the best at trying to get hold of stuff try and speak to ed or steve at warners in Tewkesbury, or Jeff at Lookers in Cardiff.

 

Sadly, i can tell you that no citroen dealer (at least no dealer on the obsolete parts system) has one in stock. I cannot search Peugeot dealers though. Part of the problem with the all dealer search is that only dealers who pay to have their stock listed are on there, and as such a lot of the smaller dealers can't justify the cost; so who knows what untold gems lurk in their store rooms. I managed to get one in late 2010, that seemed to be about it.

 

Sam

 

EDIT - and now i realise the original conversation was a few months old. doh!

Edited March 28, 2012 by Sam306

[JeffR 51]

Being a tight ar$e I cut off the leg off a chair & welded it on for my extended pick-up! Along with an XU10 windage tray, spring, sprocket & chain, an 8v baffled sump, oil cooler & Peter's modified spacer I've had no problems with surge so far.....

 

http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff499/Pgti6/OilPickupExtension.jpg

 

The engine is being converted to solid lifters & billet cams atm which gave me an opportunity to check its internals. No evidence of scored bearings or lack of oil & all good enough to re-use. I'm using an XU10 oil pump this time so I can fit the chain cover on-something you can't do with the XU9 pump body.