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qwerty

Which Gearbox ?

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qwerty

I've done a bit of searching on the forum but can't find the answers

 

My standard 205 Mi16 has developed a problem with the gearbox which is from a 91 1.6 so i've removed it, seems to have internal problems as the shaft has quite a bit of play in it.

 

I have a 205 1.8 td box and a 1.9 box from my 309 breaking, which of these would be best for acceleration, is the diesel box anygood to handle the extra revs?

 

Thanks

Mark.

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jackherer

Out of those two the 1.9 box is best but neither are suited to an Mi16.

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Miles

As above, the Derv box is fine with the Rev's, Mind the top speed if you could get there would be around 170 :lol:

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Anthony

Indeed - a 1.9 'box is too long geared and makes an Mi16 feel distinctly underwhelming in my experience, and a TD box will be considerably worse!

 

The 1.6 'box that you had on previously would probably be the best choice for a standard readily available gearbox, so I'd look out for another or have your one reconditioned.

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qwerty

ok thankyou for the replys i really appreciate them

 

could i use the 1.6 final drive to help in the 1.9 or diesel box?

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edbar

1.6 final drive in the 1.9 box will make the gearing the same as your 1.6 but with a more useful/ longer first gear.

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qwerty

Hi edbar

 

That sounds like my best option at the moment for me, the the funds are a bit drained right now.

 

Is it easy to remove and replace final drive? This is something I've not done before!

 

The 1.9 is reverse next to 1st gear and the car is reverse next to 4th, will this work?

 

Thanks Mark

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pug_ham
Is it easy to remove and replace final drive? This is something I've not done before!

205 GTI final drive swap guide, easy or hard depends on your hand skills & access to the tools needed.

 

You can swap to the be1 from be3 but you'll need a different gearstick, reverse lockout cable & possibly clutch pedal due to the gearbox end cable differences.

 

For the tiny amount of difference the 1.9 first gives on a 1.6 fd I think you'd be best just try & find a decent 1.6 Be3 box for the simple straight swap.

 

g

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qwerty

Thanks for that pug_ham :)

 

Think all put this diesel box in to keep me mobile and like you say, look out for good 1.6 box or price up to have my one recon,

 

Should be interesting to see what speed I can push my self to with this diesel box lol

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jackherer

Think all put this diesel box in

 

It will be horrible and you wont be able to say we didn't warn you :P

 

It wont reach the limiter in top gear but the max speed in lower gears will be pretty comical... (42mph in 1st, 75mph in 2nd and 110mph in 3rd, eventually)

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205_sunderland

I really want to see what the mi16 land speed record is going to be after this so keep me posted :lol:

 

On another point is there no way of changing the main drive cog ( i forgot what its called :lol:) as i was told both 1.6 and 1.9 boxes have identical gearing just the main drive cog is different to suit depending?

 

So in theory could you not make the diesel box lower ratio by changing it? as i love the 1.9 ratios but i find 5th a total let down so a mix between 1.6 and 1.9 would be class with good pulll and a good top speed?

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Anthony

See Pugham's link a few posts above for swapping the final drive (what I'm assuming you mean by "main cog")

 

The main difference between a 1.6 and 1.9 box is the final drive, approximately 10% shorter on the 1.6 box.

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205_sunderland

See Pugham's link a few posts above for swapping the final drive (what I'm assuming you mean by "main cog")

 

The main difference between a 1.6 and 1.9 box is the final drive, approximately 10% shorter on the 1.6 box.

 

Is the final drive the gear that determines the speed of the output shaft for all gears? im quite novice on gearboxes but is it located in the diff?

 

I think after reading i seek to alter 5th gear only as 5th is an overdrive gear on the 19 box and wanted a gear that carried on from 4th so the car had a steady curve of pull and still decent cruising speed, why is 5th so flat anyway, if you change flat out at say 125mph into 5th the car decelerates as the gear is crap, surely a decent ratio would ensure if would continue to pull with more muster and it would still cruise well?

Edited by 205_sunderland

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Anthony

5th gear isn't that long really on a 1.9 GTi gearbox - 80mph is about 3800rpm give or take.

 

The fact that you imply that you're changing into 5th at 125mph suggests to me that you've some other gearbox on there or your speedo is out by a country mile, as a 1.9 GTi gearbox won't do that speed with the standard rev limiter. Not only that, but the standard engine doesn't really have the power to go much quicker than that anyway regardless of gearing.

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brumster

On another point is there no way of changing the main drive cog ( i forgot what its called :lol:) as i was told both 1.6 and 1.9 boxes have identical gearing just the main drive cog is different to suit depending?

 

So in theory could you not make the diesel box lower ratio by changing it? as i love the 1.9 ratios but i find 5th a total let down so a mix between 1.6 and 1.9 would be class with good pulll and a good top speed?

 

The gearbox has 2 shafts - an input (from the engine) and an output (out to the diff), and the gear clusters sit on them both. The output shaft has the gear machined onto it, so if you want to change the final drive, the output shaft is matched to the large cog you put on the diff itself - so you can't change the ratio of the large wheel on the diff without taking out the output shaft, swapping all the gears off your old shaft onto it, and putting it all back in.

 

The other thing to remember is that if you want to change any of the gear ratios themselves, then 1st and 2nd gears are part of the shaft on the input side - so you can't pull a gear ring off the shaft; it's part OF the shaft. This means if you want to change the 1st or 2nd gear ratio, you've also got to change the input shaft along with the gear rings that match on the output shaft.

 

There is a slight difference between the 1st/2nd ratios between 1.6 and 1.9 gearboxes, but not really anything all that significant in the grand scheme of things (1.9 has a slightly taller first).

 

     Gearbox   1st   2nd   3rd   4th   5th   6th
 	1.6 GTI   3.31   1.88   1.36   1.07   0.87   0
 	1.8 GRD   3.31   1.88   1.28   0.97   0.76   0
 	1.9 GTI   2.92   1.85   1.36   1.07   0.87   0
  	306 Gti-6   2.92   1.87   1.41   1.15   0.95   0.8
  	Xsara VTS   2.92   1.86   1.28   0.95   0.74   0
  	Hybrid 1.9   2.92   1.85   1.41   1.15   0.95   0
  	Hybrid 1.6   3.31   1.88   1.41   1.15   0.95   0
  	Quaife   2.692   1.933   1.444   1.143   0.957   0   	

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Paul_13

Never knew the 1.8 grd box has the same ratios as a xsara pretty much, bar first gear!

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brumster

According to my sources it does, at least :) mind you it has a daft final drive, 3.47:1 :)

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205_sunderland

5th gear isn't that long really on a 1.9 GTi gearbox - 80mph is about 3800rpm give or take.

 

The fact that you imply that you're changing into 5th at 125mph suggests to me that you've some other gearbox on there or your speedo is out by a country mile, as a 1.9 GTi gearbox won't do that speed with the standard rev limiter. Not only that, but the standard engine doesn't really have the power to go much quicker than that anyway regardless of gearing.

 

 

maybe this engine has had work at some point then, as when it had a 1.6 gearbox on i had a go at a 225 leon just before i did the shells and i know speedos can be inaccurate but according the the clocks i did 135 before the car felt like i was going to shoot off in a jet of flames and wake up in 1988 :lol: (which really confused me as my old bxgti 8v engine would fly to 120-125 on a 1.6 box then that was it no more), and it wasnt on the rev limiter either still had a little more to go but i ran out of road.

 

Now with a 1.9 box on i would say 120-125 in 4th is the very max i can push without the speedo climbing like a snail and once you change to 5th its like hitting a brick wall and wont go any futher forward...so does that mean its down to the engine not the ratios and it just cant muster up enough go to carry on through 5th with them ratios? as with the 16 box it revved all the way to the limit in all gears with ease and 80mph is about 3500rpm id say too yeah with 19 box.

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205_sunderland

The gearbox has 2 shafts - an input (from the engine) and an output (out to the diff), and the gear clusters sit on them both. The output shaft has the gear machined onto it, so if you want to change the final drive, the output shaft is matched to the large cog you put on the diff itself - so you can't change the ratio of the large wheel on the diff without taking out the output shaft, swapping all the gears off your old shaft onto it, and putting it all back in.

 

The other thing to remember is that if you want to change any of the gear ratios themselves, then 1st and 2nd gears are part of the shaft on the input side - so you can't pull a gear ring off the shaft; it's part OF the shaft. This means if you want to change the 1st or 2nd gear ratio, you've also got to change the input shaft along with the gear rings that match on the output shaft.

 

There is a slight difference between the 1st/2nd ratios between 1.6 and 1.9 gearboxes, but not really anything all that significant in the grand scheme of things (1.9 has a slightly taller first).

 

     Gearbox   1st   2nd   3rd   4th   5th   6th
 	1.6 GTI   3.31   1.88   1.36   1.07   0.87   0
 	1.8 GRD   3.31   1.88   1.28   0.97   0.76   0
 	1.9 GTI   2.92   1.85   1.36   1.07   0.87   0
  	306 Gti-6   2.92   1.87   1.41   1.15   0.95   0.8
  	Xsara VTS   2.92   1.86   1.28   0.95   0.74   0
  	Hybrid 1.9   2.92   1.85   1.41   1.15   0.95   0
  	Hybrid 1.6   3.31   1.88   1.41   1.15   0.95   0
  	Quaife   2.692   1.933   1.444   1.143   0.957   0   	

 

cool good info to have thanks, but basically from what youve told me to build a box that produces a good 5th with standard 19 ratios is nigh on impossible or a hell of alot of money and work :lol:

Edited by 205_sunderland

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Anthony

maybe this engine has had work at some point then, as when it had a 1.6 gearbox on i had a go at a 225 leon just before i did the shells and i know speedos can be inaccurate but according the the clocks i did 135 before the car felt like i was going to shoot off in a jet of flames and wake up in 1988 :lol: (which really confused me as my old bxgti 8v engine would fly to 120-125 on a 1.6 box then that was it no more), and it wasnt on the rev limiter either still had a little more to go but i ran out of road.

 

Now with a 1.9 box on i would say 120-125 in 4th is the very max i can push without the speedo climbing like a snail and once you change to 5th its like hitting a brick wall and wont go any futher forward...so does that mean its down to the engine not the ratios and it just cant muster up enough go to carry on through 5th with them ratios? as with the 16 box it revved all the way to the limit in all gears with ease and 80mph is about 3500rpm id say too yeah with 19 box.

Try with a satnav / GPS as your speedo must be well out.

 

To give you some idea, with the standard 1.9 GTi rev limit of 6500rpm, you'd be on the limiter at roughly 101mph on a 1.6 GTi 'box and 111mph on a 1.9 GTi 'box in 4th gear, and 124mph and 136mph for 1.6 and 1.9 respectively in 5th. There is no way that you were doing 125mph in 4th short of having a diesel 'box on there.

 

There's a few 205 gear ratio spreadsheets out there with all the info you need on them to calculate this sort of info.

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brumster

5th's not your problem - if you're happy with the first 4, 5th gear is easy as both the input and output gears are splined onto the shafts. In fact I'm guessing you can possibly swap them with only taking the end cover off (never done it myself)? But if you want to combine that with a final drive change then yes, it's a strip down box jobbie.

 

While we're discussing it, I should also mention that 3rd and 4th gears, while separate on the input shaft, are paired on a single machining on the output shaft, so you also effectively need to swap these in pairs (ie. you can't really mix 3rd from one box with 4th from another).

Edited by brumster

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qwerty

Heres a little update on my diesel gearbox instalation

 

Got it put bk together last nyt and took it for a run, unfortunatly it still has the same problem as it had with the 1.6 box on, just wont come out of gear and is holding the clutch in for few seconds when the pedal is down :(

 

The problem must Lay with the pressure plate although it looked absolutely fine on inspection and only done about 2k, so off with the gearbox again and a new clutch assemble needs orded, Where can i get a slightly uprated one for not to much money?

 

On the up side it looks like my 1.6 box is ok for a few more miles, diesel box was comically long in 5th when i managed to force it into gear it was doing approx 80mph at 3000rpm :D

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