Age Old Question; Suspension Setup Advice

[johnhenry 20]

Morning all

 

Firstly, apologies, i know these open questions are abit of a chaw, so ill get right to it.

 

Im after a good suspension setup which provide really good handling and feedback, but without being crashy and being shaken to death.

Im going to be using the car for all types of road and situation, maybe track days as well. If ride height is dropped as a result, i would only like it to be about 30mm MAX, dont want it looking like a 'mod'ed' car.

 

after researching, i've come out with 2 possibilities, but as ever would really appreciate feedback.

 

Setup 1:

 

DAMPERS

> Bilstein B4 Front Dampers: Anyone have a place to source these? ive looked but only see ones that are black in colour, and have read they are to be avoided??

> O/E 306 gti6 Rear Dampers : Again part numbers for these or similar, i saw maybe 306 convertible maybe?

SPRINGS

> Eibach Springs: E7001-120's

OTHER

> Group N front susp. mounts

> Group N Rear mounts

> Maybe thicker torsion bar, 21mm from a xsara? again part number would be great if handy.

 

Setup 2:

DAMPERS:

> Standard front

> O/E 306 gti6 Rear Dampers: As above

 

SPRINGS:

> Standard

 

OTHER:

> Group N front susp. mounts

> Group N Rear mounts

 

 

the reason in so tempted by standard is purely because it is regarded so highly as a great handling car originally, but im wondering if i spend abit more, will i get even better comfort and handling.

Cheers

John

 

ps: I would welcome corrections/your own reviews etc etc.

[Tom Fenton 1,536]

Setup 1 will make for a nice road car. The B4's are only to be avoided on the rear. The front B4's are good. Set the rear beam ride height at 312mm damper centres to match the Eibachs on the front. Contact Kev at KAM Racing (Batfink on here) for supply of the Billies and Eibachs.

 

The OE rear dampers are something like 5206K6. That is off the top of my head and probably not 100% accurate. But you can easily find the number on service box under a 306, look for sport suspension.

 

Xsara torsion bars are too wide for a 205 or 309 rear beam. Leave the standard 19mm bars in there TBH. You can have a 306 GTI6 24mm rear anti roll bar shortened and this is a worthwhile addition to the rear beam with the above setup.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Tom Fenton

[Cameron 16]

The set-up I'm going for on my road car is..

 

Front:

GTi6 dampers

Eibach -30mm springs

BBM top mount bushes

 

Rear:

GTi6 dampers

21mm TB's

New standard mounts

 

And most importantly ditching the rubbish tyres!

[billybluesky 1]

Setup 1 will make for a nice road car. The B4's are only to be avoided on the rear. The front B4's are good. Set the rear beam ride height at 312mm damper centres to match the Eibachs on the front. Contact Kev at KAM Racing (Batfink on here) for supply of the Billies and Eibachs.

 

The OE rear dampers are something like 5206K6. That is off the top of my head and probably not 100% accurate. But you can easily find the number on service box under a 306, look for sport suspension.

 

Xsara torsion bars are too wide for a 205 or 309 rear beam. Leave the standard 19mm bars in there TBH. You can have a 306 GTI6 24mm rear anti roll bar shortened and this is a worthwhile addition to the rear beam with the above setup.

As everyone says it`s a personal thing, i found that B6 fronts made the handling feel much better by far without compromising ride ,and some find the group 4 top mounts a little too hard.

 

And finally i personally found that the 24mm rear ARB felt like the rear end was a little unballanced and even a bit tail happy until i fitted a 309gti front ARB to match it up

[205_sunderland 4]

so can you just fit good quality gti6 suspension kits as a upgrade to standard gti shockers without and messing or modding? this is what ill do if so and just get some bilsteins and group n mounts all round

[johnhenry 20]

The front B4's are good. Set the rear beam ride height at 312mm damper centres to match the Eibachs on the front. Contact Kev at KAM Racing (Batfink on here) for supply of the Billies and Eibachs.

 

The OE rear dampers are something like 5206K6. That is off the top of my head and probably not 100% accurate. But you can easily find the number on service box under a 306, look for sport suspension.

 

 

Thanks for the help! bang on with the 5206K6 part number, number rings a bell from another few threads, im happy with those.

 

just to clarify, sorry, regarding the 312mm centres, one would adjust the torsion bar to control the distance between the damper mounting 'centre' and the trailing arm fixing 'centre' right? sorry for wrong words, not an expert, as you will have probably guessed.

 

Thanks everyone for the input. Regarding mountings, i currently have Group A rear mounts, from the previous owner, which i found very crashy, so im hoping by replacing them with N mounts its abit better but still firm'ish. Regards torsion bar thickness, thanks for that would have been a nice little surprise if i had got one, ill stick with the standard thing then!

 

 

Cheers

John

 

PS: any other pointers are still welcomed!

[Chris_Mi 6]

John

 

Sorry to crash your thread with a mildly related plug ; I've got some yellow Bilstein B6 dampers for sale (check out my for sale thread titled "Goodies") - they really are excellent dampers for a road car - I've found nothing equal or better, and I have tried standard, Koni and Spax they give a slightly firm ride, but are definately not crashy over rough surfaces. Not sure about their applicability for track days though. These are the shocks to use if the car isn't being lowered too much. If you are looking to lower the car, and use Bilsteins, then I think the recommended shocks are the Bilstein 'Challenge' spec (or B8's).

 

Oh...and I would seriously recommend the Bilstein Group N dampers for the rear (yellow ones). These, in my opinion, were not a slightly bit better, but significantly better than the standard Gti6 (K6 series)rear dampers - which I did find very crashy - if you know the M5/M6 around Birmingham where the flyovers are, the little 'bumps' on the drains on the flyover parts really crashed the rear (I supose this was with slightly thicker 21mm torsion bars and solid metal rear beam mounts), but this was definately improved with the Bilstein B6 front and Group N rear combination.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Chris_Mi

[johnhenry 20]

John

 

Sorry to crash your thread with a mildly related plug ; I've got some yellow Bilstein B6 dampers for sale (check out my for sale thread titled "Goodies") - they really are excellent dampers for a road car - I've found nothing equal or better, and I have tried standard, Koni and Spax they give a slightly firm ride, but are definately not crashy over rough surfaces. Not sure about their applicability for track days though. These are the shocks to use if the car isn't being lowered too much. If you are looking to lower the car, and use Bilsteins, then I think the recommended shocks are the Bilstein 'Challenge' spec (or B8's).

 

Oh...and I would seriously recommend the Bilstein Group N dampers for the rear (yellow ones). These, in my opinion, were not a slightly bit better, but significantly better than the standard Gti6 (K6 series)rear dampers - which I did find very crashy - if you know the M5/M6 around Birmingham where the flyovers are, the little 'bumps' on the drains on the flyover parts really crashed the rear (I supose this was with slightly thicker 21mm torsion bars and solid metal rear beam mounts), but this was definately improved with the Bilstein B6 front and Group N rear combination.

 

ill have to pass on the dampers chap, thanks though! going to go with b4's i think at this stage, but thanks again!

 

ive found that alot of people seem to be of the opinion that solid rear mounts really seem to have the crashy effect, or emphasise it badly. another to that list it seems (including me!)

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

I see you want a set of group N rear mounts, Baker BM don't sell them anymore I tried buying a set, new recently with no luck

Edited July 19, 2011 by Paul_13

[GLPoomobile 958]

If comfort is a consideration then IMO you need to avoid Group N front top mounts. Personally i'll not use them again as I found them far too much on a road car. I had them with the Eibach springs and standard dampers. I don't know what the slightly softer 'fast road' top mount bushes are like, though.

 

On the other hand, I found that the Group A (solid) rear beam mounts are one of the best modifications you can make. I didn't find it made the back crashy at all. To me it gave the car a wonderfully 'screwed together' feeling. The only negative being a slight increase in road noise transmitted in to the cabin.

Edited July 19, 2011 by GLPoomobile

[welshpug 1,646]

the spec of B4 rears have been changed and they work far better than the previous incarnation, easy to tell they are the improved variant as they have much larger bodies.

 

the pug part number has been superseded with 5206 TE

[kyepan 291]

have a read of my how not to modify your suspension topic, pinned at the top of suspension and steering.

 

i would go with set up b, purely because it will keep the balance between front and rear spring and damping rates, but eliminate any unwanted lift off oversteer.

 

all other routes without stiffening the rear will lead to understeer, in my humble experience.

 

J

[johnhenry 20]

the spec of B4 rears have been changed and they work far better than the previous incarnation, easy to tell they are the improved variant as they have much larger bodies.

 

the pug part number has been superseded with 5206 TE

 

Thanks! i had noticed that number underneath the other, and was going to ask about it! problem solved

 

have a read of my how not to modify your suspension topic, pinned at the top of suspension and steering.

 

i would go with set up b, purely because it will keep the balance between front and rear spring and damping rates, but eliminate any unwanted lift off oversteer.

 

all other routes without stiffening the rear will lead to understeer, in my humble experience.

 

J

 

This was a concern i was having, i'm going to have to have a serious think about it all, as many people seem to suggest option A, however im wary as the 205 gained its reputation partly on brilliant handling, so minor tweaks could improve that, and also save me ALOT of money. The certainty seems to be the rear dampers, so ill get on with sourcing them along with a rear beam rebuild kit.

 

Keep the thoughts coming! Cheers all once again.

John

[205_sunderland 4]

i used bilsteins i got from gsf about 2 years ago and found them excellent but had no idea they were so highly regarded at the time.

 

People suggest the zx/xsara shocker if your planning to lower 30mm like i am, so can you also get the b4's in zx/xsara platform?

 

and in that case should i run gti6 rear to match?

 

i found the car handled awsome before on standard billies and it was lowered 30mm then, i never suffered any under or oversteer with them at all it just gripped and gripped and gripped until it let go at about 95 on a country road and became a waltser as i did a 2160 spin (the joys or torsions bars) , still got it back fine though in the end just a bit slow motion crisis talks and steering haha

[kyepan 291]

The certainty seems to be the rear dampers, so ill get on with sourcing them along with a rear beam rebuild kit.

 

putting decent dampers in the rear is fine, just leave the spring rates alone if you can.

[Anthony 1,002]

The best course of action in my opinion is two-fold:

 

Firstly, make sure that what you've got is all upto scratch and the years of neglect, wear and tear removed. There's absolutely no point at all in putting uprated dampers, torsion bars and other gucci bits on a car with a tired beam, broken beam mounts, sloppy wishbone bushes/balljoints etc as you'll never get a satisfactory result. Indeed, if anything, the uprated stiffer parts are likely to put even more strain on the already worn and tired parts.

 

Remember that these cars are still highly regarded today for their handling, poise and balance, and I honestly believe that many people simply don't realise how good a well-sorted standard car should drive when it's not hampered by 20+ years of deterioration, rather believing that the ill-handling mess many have become is in fact normal.

 

Secondly, if you do modify it, the best advice that I can give is to do it in stages. This will not only give you a much better feel for how each modification has changed the car, but makes it much easier to realise when you're heading in the wrong direction and detracting, rather than improving, the drive. Too many times I've seen people completely change everything in a single hit, be unhappy with the results, but then struggle to identify why and how to rectify the situation.

 

In terms of a particular setup, clearly what one person likes another might not. However, the combination of Bilstein B4 (black) front dampers and OE GTi-6 rears, coupled with a moderate drop all round on something like Eibachs is normally a good starting point for a budget setup that works well on a predominately road-driven car. Going on from that, a moderate increase in rear ARB thickness (say ~22mm) will help turn-in and response, and if you've got the money, re-balancing the front-rear spring rates with a mild increase in rear torsion bar thickness (20-21mm) will produce a nice supple-riding road going 205 that's balanced and a joy to drive.

 

The other thing that I don't think has been mentioned is the steering rack - the standard (3.9 turn) non-PAS steering rack is far too slow in my opinion, and the improvement from fitting a quicker one (a 3.2 turn PAS rack with the PAS bits removed is popular) cannot be under-estimated.

 

i found the car handled awsome before on standard billies and it was lowered 30mm then, i never suffered any under or oversteer with them at all it just gripped and gripped and gripped until it let go at about 95 on a country road and became a waltser as i did a 2160 spin (the joys or torsions bars)

I suspect the fault lay not with the torsion bars, but rather with the fleshy object located between the steering wheel and seat...

[johnhenry 20]

Thanks Anthony

 

very true, got to get whats there good before i add more to it! and again, the issue of it being such a well sorted car standard, messing around with it with major components might change it completely not to my liking. But there are certainly parts that seem to be highly rated by all asked, such as the dampers.

 

another point to really consider for myself, at the unenviable age of 21, is insurance :/

 

Please excuse the next question, its sheer ignorance in terms of product and suspension parts im sure.

 

Could one purchase better springs but still maintain the standard ride height, to go with the standard shocks on the front. Or as above, are the standard ones the best if going standard route?

 

Cheers

John