205 Track Car - Problem With Roll Over In Corners

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

Hi,

 

I have a big problem with the handling of my sprint/hillclimb car. In sharp corners the inner wheels

go off the ground and when i don't go off the pedal or take back the steeringangle it will roll over !

Last weekend i drove a corner and the inner wheels were 1m off the ground. I had a lot off

luck that nothing serious happend.

 

What can i do to get the car on the ground in corners ?

 

My setup :

 

Peugeot 205 MI16 with about 175hp and 200Nm, Quaife Diff, and very short gearbox

 

FRONT:

 

lowered -30mm ( wishbone is now parallel to the ground)

Bilstein dampers tarmac spec with 350lbs springs (60kg/cm)

309 GTI16V wishbones ( meassured camber -2° )

castor : a little bit more then original with adjustable topmounts )

ARB from a 309GTI16V

 

REAR:

lowered -30mm

Bilstein dampers tarmac spec

TB's 23mm

ARB 25mm

 

WHEELS :

ATS DTC 7*15 ET18 with slick tyres AVON 7,5/19,5/15 . At the front A53(soft), rear A15(supersoft)

At the rear i use 10mm spacers on each side.

 

What is the problem because the car will be really fast, but in corners i loose too much time for a

good race result :-)

 

Andy

www.peugeot-racing.at.tf

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

ARB from a 309GTI16V

 

This will cause the inside front wheel to lift, had a front 309gti arb took it off as I prefered the 205gti arb.

[TT205 42]

Bearing in mind you have quite a stiff setup and you are running slicks - are you simply getting the inside wheels airborne off the kerbs and then the sheer grip you have got isn't letting the car slide and giving a tendency to roll?

[rallyeash 155]

i'd stick a 205 front arb on there first of all

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

Thanks for the answers !

 

Here is a short video from the lap with my almost roll over :-)

 

 

I will try the standard GTI ARB at the front.

 

Maybe the standard GTI ARB at the rear too ?

 

I also have 500lbs springs for the front and 20mm spacers for the rear. Do you think this will

be also a good idea to fit that ?

 

Andy

www.peugeot-racing.at.tf

[feb 47]

I don't see how 500lb springs will make it any better but others who might have tried this should be able to help.

The car will bounce everywhere on anything but smooth tarmac IMHO.

Your car seems to stick like $hit to a blanket!

Edited July 15, 2011 by feb

[Cameron 16]

I don't see how swapping the ARB's for softer ones will help! What he needs is less body roll, not more!

 

If you ask me, it's a combination of having very soft slick tyres, springs that IMO are a little too soft for slicks, and a high centre of gravity. Unfortunately you can't do much about the last one without quite a lot of work, and you certainly don't want to go slower by removing the slicks! Fitting stiffer springs will help but not solve the problem.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Cameron

[rallyeash 155]

i was just watching that video and thinking, whats he complaining at, plenty of grip at both ends, cocking a rear wheel on the tighter stuff then that happens at the end!!

 

looks like it goes well and sounds great. can't really help with your issues though

[omega 82]

i was just watching that video and thinking, whats he complaining at, plenty of grip at both ends, cocking a rear wheel on the tighter stuff then that happens at the end!!

 

looks like it goes well and sounds great. can't really help with your issues though

 

i agree looks good

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

"i was just watching that video and thinking, whats he complaining at"

 

Yes, it looks quite nice but you can only see in the last corner what i'am fighting

with in every corner :-)

 

Because in every corner i has to reduce speed that the wheels stay on the

ground. In the last corner i was to optimistic :-)

 

With my 350lb springs i'am one of the drivers with the softest setup here :-)

Most of my opponents with Clio, Fiesta, Peugeot, Golf,... are driving much stiffer

springs. Something like 500-800lb rates.

 

I think my biggest problem is the hight of the car. But as Camaron said this

is nothing i could change easily.

 

Maybe i should go wider with other whells. Something like 9*13" instead

of my 7*15" wheels which i now use....

But that's something for next year.

 

I need a good setup with the things i already have for the last 4 races this year to

save some money and time :-)

 

Andy

[Rippthrough 98]

That's a problem with the roll centre heights compared to the CoG.

Your easiest fix would be to lower the car (especially the front) on stiffer springs/torsion bars, or widen the track.

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

It's time now to give some update concerning my roll over problem :-)

 

It has taken some time but i have solved it. My car now performs really, really well.

 

With the new setup i won the last race and i even beated the actual austrian champion in this class :-)

 

Setup :

 

~780 kg weight ( everything now has gone what i don't need -120kg )

 

8x13" OZ rims ET -10 with 8.0/19.5-13 AVON tyres (A11 front, A53 rear)

 

 

Front : Bilstein shocks with 140kg/cm springs ( ~800lb )

no front ARB

camber -1,5°

toe ~0°

 

Rear : TB's 23mm, ARB 25mm

 

Tran-X Diff 30/60 ( what a difference to my old Quaife !)

 

 

Here are a view pictures of my 205. Now in white ( before it was sorrentogreen ) :

 

www.peugeot-racing.at.tf

 

Andy

[EdCherry 34 1 Cars]

Way to soft on the rear springs I fear, and IMO way to hard on the front.

 

Looks good though, and if it suits you so be it.

Edited May 24, 2012 by EdCherry

[harryskid 193]

Looks good Andy !

[calvinhorse 870]

Try putting it back on standard road tyres, that should help

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

Try putting it back on standard road tyres, that should help

 

Why ? The problem is solved with my new setup. And road tyres are for road cars...slicks are for race cars :-)

 

These frontsprings are really not to stiff without an front ARB. The suspension is working perfect for this kind

of race (Hillclimb and sprintrace). Try it!

 

I talked to two suspension specialist who also drove a 205 in such competitions in Germany and both used

nearly the same setup. And with my class win last week against extrem hard competitors i think i have proofed

that it works. I only was a view tenth of a second behind the actual FIA Zone Europe Champion (he starts in another class) !

 

Andy

[Cameron 16]

Great to hear that you've sorted your problems and are now happy with the car.

 

800lb springs are quite firm, but considering it's a race car on slicks with no front ARB I don't think it's an issue. If you ran slightly more static front camber then you could get away with going down to 600-650lb front springs and give your tyres (and your spine!) a bit of a break.

 

If you're happy with the balance then I wouldn't worry about what people say about your rear spring rates, but you could improve the balance if it tends to understeer by going up to a 24mm or 25mm TB thickness and down on the front rates as I mentioned above; you'd still retain the same level of roll resistance or thereabouts, just move the balance towards slight oversteer which is more favourable in a FWD with a proper LSD.

[welshpug 1,646]

try getting hold of Colin Satchell, he does hillclimbing and builds hillclimp and sprint cars, could give you a few pointers as to chassis setup.

[petert 578]

Excellent work. I suggested dropping the ARB and fitting bigger front springs in another post and got laughed at..........

 

When you have the results on the board the pub talk stops.

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

 

If you're happy with the balance then I wouldn't worry about what people say about your rear spring rates, but you could improve the balance if it tends to understeer by going up to a 24mm or 25mm TB thickness and down on the front rates as I mentioned above; you'd still retain the same level of roll resistance or thereabouts, just move the balance towards slight oversteer which is more favourable in a FWD with a proper LSD.

 

thanks Cameron!

 

that is something i really want to try when i can get a cheap set of stronger tb's. i let you know the results when i have tested it.

[andy0075 9 1 Cars]

Excellent work. I suggested dropping the ARB and fitting bigger front springs in another post and got laughed at..........

 

When you have the results on the board the pub talk stops.

 

Thanks Peter!

 

yes that's true. and even when you proof it with results there are some people who don't believe it ;-)

 

I still use your cams stage II and I in my MI16 and they work great from low rpm up to 7400. Perfect cams

if you need low end power to accelerate quick out of sharp bends but still have good power and high revs.

 

Andy