Building Bottom Arms With Rose Joints - If We All Chip In Money Saved

[tri_longer 25]

This seems to be gently gravitating towards Colin Satchell's proven set up! Done properly I think the price will go the same way too.

 

At the risk of being told to go and do a search, could you elaborate on what Colins set up consists of?

[Cameron 16]

At the risk of being told to go and do a search, could you elaborate on what Colins set up consists of?

 

I was going to ask the same. I think if you did a search for Colin Satchel, trying to find a relevant post would be like looking for a needle in the world's largest haystack!

[205_sunderland 4]

i think ill be able to get all the parts together for a maximum of £100 and im aiming for alot less that a maximum, the welding will

NOT cost alot, its a very very very easy job for a decent welder i could see the labour on these being no more than £50 and ill build a set for that i can guarantee personally as ill just get a friend to weld and mill there for me...at what point has the price reached anywhere near the stupid one of motorsport companys and there magical wounderful jig which i could of made in my old job in a few hour tops.

 

 

Stop been d*ckheads and over complicating everything its simple task if we all pitch in to make a set and its totally up to you who welds then its that simple

 

[Tom Fenton 1,542]

I am not going to get into the welding debate, but a couple of other points,

 

You will need to have the donor arm machined to accept the insert, this needs to be done with reasonable accuracy and fit.

 

You will also need to have the drop pin machined from some decent material, you will find doing it from a bolt not really possible due to the fit required onto any top hat spacers as a standard shank bolt isn't generally good enough size tolerance wise.

[205_sunderland 4]

I am not going to get into the welding debate, but a couple of other points,

 

You will need to have the donor arm machined to accept the insert, this needs to be done with reasonable accuracy and fit.

 

You will also need to have the drop pin machined from some decent material, you will find doing it from a bolt not really possible due to the fit required onto any top hat spacers as a standard shank bolt isn't generally good enough size tolerance wise.

 

 

yeah i was going to get a slot milled out for arm, and is there anywhere that supplies the shoulder bolts with a good enough shoulder to locate with?

[Cameron 16]

I think what Tom was saying is you shouldn't be using a shoulder bolt to attach the BBJ to the hub!

 

This may drive the cost up more that you expect, unless you're friendly with a good machinist.. You'll also need to specify the correct material as Tom said, and also design the shoulder bolt and spacers, then create a production drawing with correct tolerances.

 

If you think the above is "over-complicating bulls*it" then think again, the drop pin will be the most critical part as this will be seeing very high shear stresses! The tolerance where the pin goes through the spherical bearing will be critical, you definitely don't want it to be too loose a fit. Also you may well find that plain old mild steel won't cut it strength-wise.

 

If you need help working on the drop pin give me a shout, I can help you determine what stresses it'll see and design a part that will cope, and also create production drawings.

 

Ps with all of the above considered, it's easy to see where the "over-inflated" motorsport prices come from!

Edited July 6, 2011 by Cameron

[205wrc 16]

i think ill be able to get all the parts together for a maximum of £100 and im aiming for alot less that a maximum, the welding will

NOT cost alot, its a very very very easy job for a decent welder i could see the labour on these being no more than £50 and ill build a set for that i can guarantee personally as ill just get a friend to weld and mill there for me...at what point has the price reached anywhere near the stupid one of motorsport companys and there magical wounderful jig which i could of made in my old job in a few hour tops.

 

 

Stop been d*ckheads and over complicating everything its simple task if we all pitch in to make a set and its totally up to you who welds then its that simple

 

 

 

Wow.......If you're going to be able to get all the bits together for £100 you better make me a set as well, as I certainly can't get the components that cheap, even at trade prices.

The Group A rose joints - i.e. the ones used by Skip Brown, AB Motorsport and other companies that build PROPER arms cost over £100 EACH. These are made by Rose Bearings, and are part number RBJ79MG.

Add to that machining 2 inserts, machining the bottom arms to accept the inserts, welding the inserts in the arms, making a pair of drop bolts from EN24 steel, machining 4 top hat spacers and supplying 2 M16 Nyloc lock nuts, and you don't have much change from £350+

I've seen a few companies sell arms which they claim to be Group A wishbones, when the clearly aren't. A rose joint which has a hole of 16mm and an M16 thread is deffinately not up to the job.

Cheap - yes

Easily available - yes

Safe - Your life and every other road users depend on it, so no

Would I buy an arm with a rose that size on there - No Bl**dy way

As for the welding - half a dozen of one, 6 of the other. The arms are cast steel, so there's no problem with either MIG TIG or ARC as long as you've got proper penetration. Beautiful looking welds on the surface looks good, but worth bugger all unless it's actually holding two bits together.

If anyone wants bottom arms at much lower prices than "Motorsport" prices, let me know. Arms also available with a replaceable spherical bearing instead of the standard ball joint.

Pics also available...

[stu8v 68 1 Cars]

In 5 mins I priced some Aurora ones up for approx 65 quid each, bigger and stronger than the PTS versions. There are alternatives, but each have there merits regarding self building etc.

 

You must remember your paying for knowledge not just a collection of parts, very few in the aftermarket will give you all there secrets.....!

[205wrc 16]

What sizes are they??

[stu8v 68 1 Cars]

3/4 x 3/4 which in itself causes more work should you not have the machines to hand, lathe, milling machine etc etc. to bugger about with spacers/sleeves

 

I reckon I will use something along those lines, well if I ever get it built.

[205wrc 16]

Smaller than a PTS one then.

 

RBJ79MG are 16mm hole and M20 thread, rated at over 7,000 tonnes.

Edited July 6, 2011 by 205wrc

[Rippthrough 98]

Smaller than a PTS one then.

 

RBJ79MG are 16mm hole and M20 thread, rated at over 70,000 tonnes.

 

70,000lbs perhaps.

 

70,000 tonnes is a hell of a rose joint!

[205wrc 16]

70,000lbs perhaps.

 

70,000 tonnes is a hell of a rose joint!

 

 

One "0" to many. Should read 7000 tonnes

[205_sunderland 4]

i found today places that do ground, high tensile steel shoulder bolts that would be ideal for the job of holding joint and seem to be £15 quid a bolt maybe less, the joints yes are the most expensive item but that mgill do insert for £5 each if i can get right sizes and weld in insert for £5 each again so get balljoints/ bolts elsewhere and the rest from the and kit becomes resonable would you not agree?

 

Ive yet to have anyone diss mcgill with reason yet just alot of people say there bad with no proof which is why i still may use there best joints which are £20 each and other forum seem to speak highly of them on net research ive done

[swordfish210 20]

I bought 2 M6 rod ends from McGill to do my gear linkage with and they're terrible quality, the bearing is so slack in the housing it's unbeliveable. If you want i'll send them to you so you can see for yourself.

[stu8v 68 1 Cars]

Smaller than a PTS one then.

 

RBJ79MG are 16mm hole and M20 thread, rated at over 7,000 tonnes.

 

 

Barely! 3/4" = 19.05mm

 

plus they are stronger rated 152kN compared to 122kN for the RBJ79MG

 

I dont see you point?

 

Never knew there was such a thing bearing snobbery

[EdCherry 34 1 Cars]

i found today places that do ground, high tensile steel shoulder bolts that would be ideal for the job of holding joint and seem to be £15 quid a bolt maybe less, the joints yes are the most expensive item but that mgill do insert for £5 each if i can get right sizes and weld in insert for £5 each again so get balljoints/ bolts elsewhere and the rest from the and kit becomes resonable would you not agree?

 

Ive yet to have anyone diss mcgill with reason yet just alot of people say there bad with no proof which is why i still may use there best joints which are £20 each and other forum seem to speak highly of them on net research ive done

 

What proof can I give you?

 

Working on race cars almost daily, when someone gave me a brand new mcgill joint to fit to their car I threw it straight back at them, its worse than a 2 year old NMB which had done a fair few hours and was causing some play in the steering!

 

Proof enough they are the cheapest s*it going.

 

Buy imperial while your at it, cheaper.

[205wrc 16]

There isn't. Peugeot Sport obviously spent thousands developing and testing their Group A cars, and used what was best for them. AB Motorsport, West Midlands, Skip Brown all use the same Rose Joint so that must tell you something.

Why go to all the bother of machining extra spacers to sleeve the 3/4" down to 16mm while there is a bearing available off the shelf???

I work in the motor industry, and we find the old saying very true.......Buy cheap, buy twice!

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I'd just make some up yourself and test off road first so you can make your own mind up,

Things are at a price because your not just paying for the parts but Experiences & Testing which is priceless

 

Plus again if you sold them as new it brings a whole new meaning to your project

[205_sunderland 4]

Im not going to go against your opinion lads i just wanted to know, someone tell me the cheapest trustworthy size joints then and where there from and ill just use mcgill for inserts for arm and for top hat inserts of joints as aslong as its good quality steel they should do easily.

 

Ill ring them companys ive seen for the high tensile steel shoulder bolts and they appear a ground finish so ideal for the use as ill just get the required iso spec ones to be strong enough tensile wise.

 

even if it cost 150 for parts its not bad at all is it for a good quality set as rest of parts still buttons

 

so where shall i look then and what sizes you recommend i look at?

[fatony1 17]

What is the general opinion on the Group A arms made by Shenpar? (as i've just bought a pair )

[205_sunderland 4]

What is the general opinion on the Group A arms made by Shenpar? (as i've just bought a pair )

 

 

theres nothing wrong with them at all bud, im just trying to build a set for alot less as i feel there overpriced

[Sandy 191]

At the risk of being told to go and do a search, could you elaborate on what Colins set up consists of?

 

Modified 405 uprights, fabricated lower arms with clevis join, outer bearing in a housing rather than a threaded joint hanging out in the breeze and relying on the thread strength in bending (the weakest part), inner rose joints aligned with load to avoid bending moments, pick up points revised on strengthened subframe for better precision and improved roll centre at lower ride height, revised steering arm position to massively reduce bump steer and rose jointed ends, top mount location revised and strengthened. Revised tubular driveshafts to suit widened track and much stronger.

That's doing it properly and doing less is arguably throwing good money after bad. Points made about joint and welding quality are worth bearing in mind, serious issues towards the safety of it. Having an arm break on the track could be quite serious, but on the road, 10x more so.

[Cameron 16]

How much for that setup though?

[205_sunderland 4]

How much for that setup though?

 

 

exactly why even mention it , were not trying to build mega race set-ups just a decent road/track day arm that beat the age old balljoint porblem and all i want is people to help me with sizes etc and ill in turn share cheapest way to compile the parts