Building Bottom Arms With Rose Joints - If We All Chip In Money Saved

[swordfish210 20]

I'm not even sure if MIG welding is even the correct process for welding the bush to the end of the wishbone.

 

James

 

Would you TIG?

[EdCherry 34 1 Cars]

Id stick weld it personally, and more metal does mean a better weld...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

AHAHAHAAHAHA

[205_sunderland 4]

THANK GOD someone else spotted this!

 

SurGie, important to note that a big fat glob of weld doesn't necessarily mean stronger, it means they don't know how to weld efficiently and are using too much wire and heat. Get the settings right and there's no reason why a nice neat weld (like the one in your 2nd link actually ) can't be stronger.

 

What's more, there's lots of stop-starts on that which mean cold points of less penetration and areas where a crack can begin to form. A welder worth his salt could quite happily do that seam in 2 runs.

 

Anyone know why the balljoints are cocked at an angle like that anyway? Is it necessary to gain clearance somewhere, or to reduce the static angle on the spherical bearing?

 

Its all about the penetration , and thanks for pics purgie.

 

I also want to query the angles as the standard ball joint sits perfectly square to the arm and a rose joint must have similar movement potential so why the angle?

 

ps has anyone got an spare arm to take measurements off as i dont at the moment sadly , ive been considering depending on arm width of course the possibility of using a larger joint e.g. m20 instead of standard m16 and using inserts to alow a good range of movement and also a larger strong joint without hub machining, this may also in turn allow the joint to be welded flat into the arm and thus more importantly increase strength

 

Ill need measurements of arm from balljoint to a datum point to work out when to cut etc to make joint fit and need to know the width of arm at end to see what largest insert i can weld in would be. so far my plan is as follow and i want your opinions and by the way how do you get around the issue of standard ball joint location hole relying on pinch bolt set-up?

 

If anyone had a drawing of arm sizes it would be amazing ?

 

1) use larger 20mm to make balljoint chuck norris strong

 

 

2) use these inserts to allow the standard 16mm (am i right standard ball joint is 16mm dia?) bolt fit larger balljoint and allow excellent range of movement

 

 

3) insert to weld into arm

 

 

and all that is needed is a shoulder bolt through the lot to locate into hub and someone to tell me how to get around the slit in hub and its all gravy baby pending i can get insert to convert 20mm to 16mm and the arm width will support it. Let me know what you think peeps and stay classy...

[Cameron 16]

I really hope you're joking!

 

Why would you want to MMA it? The material isn't that thick, any decent MIG unit will happily cope.. it's far easier to control your weld too!

[EdCherry 34 1 Cars]

I really hope you're joking!

 

Why would you want to MMA it? The material isn't that thick, any decent MIG unit will happily cope.. it's far easier to control your weld too!

 

I feel you know nothing about welding, and your speaking complete and utter bollocks.

 

I still think stick would be better!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh dont hate cameron, im only pulling your leg!

Edited July 5, 2011 by EdCherry

[205_sunderland 4]

I really hope you're joking!

 

Why would you want to MMA it? The material isn't that thick, any decent MIG unit will happily cope.. it's far easier to control your weld too!

 

 

mma? im sorry i dont speak spanish lol, i can weld decently myself but not coded etc and only used mig and a little tig in previous job and have no idea what that means , looking at pics though it seems the possiblity of a larger joint may be out the window as the arm may not be wide enough to support it depending if you can get different thread sizes on house to joint end

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

MMA Manual metal arc

[swordfish210 20]

mma? im sorry i dont speak spanish lol, i can weld decently myself but not coded etc and only used mig and a little tig in previous job and have no idea what that means

 

MMA is known as stick or Arc welding. Useful if you're welding a couple of RSJ's togeather

[SurGie 54]

A few more pictures done better >

 

 

Looking closer they are 205 ones with the whole filled in with weld, so they must have been fitted further inwards than the other one. The angle looks better in this picture.

 

Does the negative camber mean the rose joints have to be at that angle ?

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

MMA is known as stick or Arc welding. Useful if you're welding a couple of RSJ's togeather

 

Does have many more uses than welding girders together. Why would this not be sufficient? Enlighten me, I ain't taking the piss just curious

[SurGie 54]

Gas welding them is another way, iv done a bit of that.

[Cameron 16]

MMA = stick welding as previously said.. anyone heard of Google? I'm not speaking code any more than people who say MIG or TIG.

 

Paul, it's perfectly fine to use MMA for something like this, it's just much easier to navigate around complex seams with a MIG welder. You'd have to be very good with a stick welder to do a decent job of it.

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Ok I might give this a go myself, had loads of practice with MMA and a certified pipewelder. Find it easier to do MMA than MIG!

[Cameron 16]

A few more pictures done better >

 

 

Looking closer they are 205 ones with the whole filled in with weld, so they must have been fitted further inwards than the other one. The angle looks better in this picture.

 

Does the negative camber mean the rose joints have to be at that angle ?

 

 

[hcmini1989 16]

Right just a thought are you doing this because of the price of the arms? .Is the standard balljoint just pressed in?.Why not look into using a similar design to the newer renaults they have a press in and out joint perhaps if you turned on of these down (providing there is enought meet on them) And there only a few quid off the shelf.

 

Just a thought .

[205_sunderland 4]

The thickness of the arm i would of thought mig would of been fine really, ive only used stick for burning holes in 1mm thin plate in the past

[stu8v 68 1 Cars]

My last ones where TIG welded FYI.

[205_sunderland 4]

My last ones where TIG welded FYI.

 

yeah i was going to get who ever does it to TIG it,

[205_sunderland 4]

ps can anymore measure angle on arms too or explain why its there like i said earlier

[Rippthrough 98]

^To correct the angle of the rosejoint for lowered cars. Generally off-the-shelf rosejoints will have a smaller angular movement available compared to a standard cupped balljoint.

 

 

Has anyone near me got an old knacked arm or two? Easiest way might be to do a tutorial on it but there'd have to be one hell of a disclaimer preceding it...

Edited July 5, 2011 by Rippthrough

[205_sunderland 4]

^To correct the angle of the rosejoint for lowered cars. Generally off-the-shelf rosejoints will have a smaller angular movement available compared to a standard cupped balljoint.

 

 

Has anyone near me got an old knacked arm or two? Easiest way might be to do a tutorial on it but there'd have to be one hell of a disclaimer preceding it...

 

 

As long as you didnt make them for someone its not your fault if there retarded and screw it up copying id say, so in that case the angle isnt mega crucial really so good news as long as it roughly right and equal both arms should be fine, see what progresses with sizes etc

[Vili 18]

Right just a thought are you doing this because of the price of the arms? .Is the standard balljoint just pressed in?.Why not look into using a similar design to the newer renaults they have a press in and out joint perhaps if you turned on of these down (providing there is enought meet on them) And there only a few quid off the shelf.

 

Just a thought .

 

Or do what someone did here in Finland and use 406 struts with removable baljoint. He pressed out the balljoint from 205 arm drilled it and welded a sleeve made in lathe in the place. The balljoint desing in 406 is upsidedown compared to 205. The balljoint bolt goes through the arm instead of the strut.

 

By the way MMA is the way to go if you want strong welds but it nees a welder who knows their business.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Vili

[Cameron 16]

Whatwhatwhat?? Sorry to keep arguing about welding, but there's absolutely no reason why an MMA weld would be stronger than MIG or TIG! It's 100% down to the person welding it using the correct settings in all cases.

 

TIG welding is hyped up as being the best form of welding by people who don't really know what they're talking about and are impressed by seeing the "fish scales" but on material as thick as this IMO it's inefficient. Again there's absolutely no reason why a TIG weld would be stronger than a properly laid MIG weld, in fact it can be the opposite as you normally get a slightly thicker weld with MIG. TIG does allow that little bit more control but for something like this you just don't need it.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Cameron

[Liquid_106 97 1 Cars]

Or do what someone did here in Finland and use 406 struts with removable baljoint. He pressed out the balljoint from 205 arm drilled it and welded a sleeve made in lathe in the place. The balljoint desing in 406 is upsidedown compared to 205. The balljoint bolt goes through the arm instead of the strut.

pics / link?

[Sandy 191]

This seems to be gently gravitating towards Colin Satchell's proven set up! Done properly I think the price will go the same way too.