Best Combination Of Mi / Gti-6 Parts

[stuart 31 3 Cars]

So I've bought an short Mi16 engine with the intention of creating an Mi / Gti-6 hybrid for every day use and the occasional bit of hooning around.

 

The main objectives of this are nice town driving characteristics, i.e. good idle, nice spread of power and average roughly 35mpg when pottering about but then really come alive when the revs start to rise. Also I want to take some measures to reduce the chances of oil surge as I'm sure I'll want to take it on a track at some point.

 

I want to use the Mi block, head and cams as from what I've read it makes for a more lively engine than the Gti-6. But I want to run it on modern management and use any other bits I can use off the 6 engine (or any other engine for that matter) that will improve the Mi, i.e. inlet and throttle body.

 

 

Before I start to gather parts I'm interested to hear peoples opinions and experiences when building an engine with similar objectives to mine.

 

 

One thing I have been wondering is that can the Mi engine run well on remapped Gti-6 management if I use the inlet, coil packs, etc or am I better off going with something like Dta or Omex?

 

Also, does anyone have any other ideas about parts I could use to help acheive my goal?

 

 

Thanks in advance

Stu

[Cameron 16]

You won't be able to use the GTi6 management on the hybrid engine, or at least not easily as you have nowhere to put the knock sensor. I put mine straight on Emerald instead but to be honest I would use Omex in the future as the Emerald is actually pretty crude.

 

I've had this combination in my track car for about 3 years now and it's a brilliant engine, just being let down by the management and standard plenum at the moment as it can't cope with the rate the revs drop down to idle with my clutch & flywheel combination. I've never had any oil starvation problems on track, and I can happily keep my eyes off the needle now! I'm using the GTi6 sump and oil pump and recommend you do the same, fitting the windage tray too if you can get the necessary work done.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

You could use the old Mi knock sensor mounted on the Main bearing cross bolt, But the head would need the cam sensor hole unless you use the GTi 6 head straight off or with a Mi head you would need the S16 head with the side mounted take off/Stat housing with the right inlet cam.

 

I agree with Cam that Omex is so much easier to map over Emerald which is a pain but it can run the individual coil packs unlike the Omex unless you move up to the 710

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Just use the GTi6 head, can't see why the engine would be less lively with gti6 head compared to mi16 really.

 

Bonus would be that you even have larger valve pockets when using Mi16 block on gti6 head than with gti6 block.

Your compression will be roughly 10.8:1 with gti6 head on Mi16 (XU9J4) block.

 

Or mayybe you was talking about XU10J4 when saying Mi16?

[stuart 31 3 Cars]

Thanks for the replies lads, some good info there. I realise people have done similar things on here before but I want to focus on making it as nice an engine as possible for road use.

 

My intention was to use the XU9J4 engine as a base but use just the inlet / tb off the Gti6 as that's an area that will hopefully improve preformance without affecting the driveability (sounds awesome too!).

I'm kind of under the impression that the cams in the Mi give it it's character, or will that be down to all elements of the engine working together?

 

Also I do want to try and keep this as cheap as possible so don't want to remove the head / buy another unless I have to really.

As long as the bottom end is in decent condition then I was going to leave as is and just tidy up the outside.

However due to it being stood for a while I'm wondering if this is a risk worth taking or not...

 

I suppose it makes sense to fit the whole 6/vts top end as that would be the best combination as per the original question!

 

It's just a case of how far I go (and how much I spend!) towards acheiving my goal.

[petert 588]

 

I'm kind of under the impression that the cams in the Mi give it it's character, or will that be down to all elements of the engine working together?

 

 

GTi6 cams are pretty lame. Yes, you need to put something with a bit more duration in there.

[Cameron 16]

Mine was really nice on standard cams actually.. fitting slightly longer cams pretty much ruined the day-to-day driveability of it. How much of that is down to s*it map I don't know though.

[joris_andriesse 8]

I'm doing the same at the moment (putting the gti6 on an xu9j4 that is). Main reason for that is, that I hope to win some bottom power. You will lose a bit of the specific character of the MI, but will get an more drivable engine. I'm busy with more modifications, but thats an other story.

[petert 588]

Mine was really nice on standard cams actually.. fitting slightly longer cams pretty much ruined the day-to-day driveability of it. How much of that is down to s*it map I don't know though.

 

It's got 10.8:1 CR. It's a shame to waste it. Your mapping must have been s*it as you should still have a sweet idle with an inlet cam of 200-225 deg. @ 0.050" of duration and a totally tractable engine. Standard is just 205.

[welshpug 1,661]

My Newman PH2 inlet is 222.5 Degrees Duration @ 1.0mm, which is lower than 0.050" (1.27mm) and idles perfectly fine on an unmapped gti6 ecu.

[petert 588]

That probably equates to approx. 217-218 deg. @ 0.050".

[Cameron 16]

Mine is using Newman PH2 cams too! You can see why I won't go back to Emerald now.

[joris_andriesse 8]

You won't be able to use the GTi6 management on the hybrid engine, or at least not easily as you have nowhere to put the knock sensor.

 

 

You could use the old Mi knock sensor mounted on the Main bearing cross bolt, But the head would need the cam sensor hole unless you use the GTi 6 head straight off or with a Mi head you would need the S16 head with the side mounted take off/Stat housing with the right inlet cam.

 

Can you guy's please tell me a little bit more about this?

The thing is that at the moment I'm busy with the same. I have an xu9j4, with gti6 inlet manifold, and looking for possibility's to let it run on gti6 loom and computer. Would like to to make the engine run on a coil pack and use the map sensor (is it called that way in English?), but don't want to go for aftermarket management.

Also open for other options of course.

[stuart 31 3 Cars]

On closer inspection I'm not sure if I do have an s16 head or not.

 

It has a stat takeoff on the side and there seems to be a bung fitted in a hole at the o/s rear of the head at the top.

Could this be where the cam sensor goes? The rocker is the coilpack type one too I think.

Can anyone tell from the pics?

 

edit: just realised there's no pics of the engine in this thread,there is in my restoration thread though!)

Edited May 26, 2011 by stuart

[petert 588]

edit: just realised there's no pics of the engine in this thread,there is in my restoration thread though!)

 

Point me in the right direction to have a look.

[Cameron 16]

Joris - It needs to have a proper map to get the most out of it, my map is quite different to the map for a standard GTi6! I don't know if the GTi6 ECU is re-mappable but if it is then that may be an option.

[joris_andriesse 8]

Hey Cameron,

 

I was wondering if it is possible hardware wise. I know I will be missing the knock and cam sensor and trying to find out or the engine will run without those signals and if not, what possible solutions there are to make it run. (With the map sensor I mean the sensor which is in the inlet manifold. The one measuring the airflow.)

 

If possible I first want it to run on the original map of the ecu and maybe remap it in the future.

[stuart 31 3 Cars]

Hey Cameron,

 

I was wondering if it is possible hardware wise. I know I will be missing the knock and cam sensor and trying to find out or the engine will run without those signals and if not, what possible solutions there are to make it run. (With the map sensor I mean the sensor which is in the inlet manifold. The one measuring the airflow.)

 

If possible I first want it to run on the original map of the ecu and maybe remap it in the future.

 

Ideally I'd like to run mine on GTI6/VTS management too as I want to use as much of the standard engines as I can, to keep costs down more than anything.

 

So if I have an S16 head then the holes for the sensors should be there then? There is a hole which looks to have been blanked at the back of the head, at the pulley end.

 

Here's a link to my other thread with a few pics in:

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=125902&st=20

 

Can anyone tell from those pics if it's an S16 or Mi16 head?

 

 

Hopefully I'll get it on an engine stand this week and get the sump off to see what the mains look like and take it from there

[welshpug 1,661]

Count the exhaust studs 1.9 - 9, 2.0 - 10.

 

edit: I see you said the 8 branch tubular manifold is fitted, that'll be a 1.9 head.

Not sure if the 2.0 thermostat housing and inlet cam can be fitted so you have a cam sensor.

 

The gti6 Magnetti Marelli management is mappable (as is the S16 Bosch system) though I only know of one person in the UK that does it (other than the generic Superchips type) and its not that cheap initially, circa £400 afaik, it involves removing the original chip, soldering a socket in, then adapting the original map and saving a copy yo the new chip, further mapping would cost less I'd imagine though.

 

It wont run properly without the cam sensor as its a sequential spark and injection system, which needs the cam phase sensor to work out engine position.

 

Unsure what the ecu does if there's no knock sensor, but its easy to add one of those.

 

Probably easier to get a DTA S40 ecu or similar, you have a DTA supplier quite local to you IIRC, he runs or used to fun a C2R2 and is building a 3.0 M powered 1-Series Stage car.

Edited May 27, 2011 by welshpug

[petert 588]

I run a 2.0L thermo housing and cam sensor on a 1.9L head. It fits perfectly but the trick is you have to fit the cam seal on the inlet cam before pressing on the cam sensor. At 400 for a remap it's not really cheap. You're better off biting the bullet and going aftermarket ECU. The standard ECU retards the ignition timing dramatically if a knock sensor is not fitted - fault mode.

Edited May 27, 2011 by petert

[Mad Scientist 106]

I would have thought Welshpug and I are talking about the same person, but Wayne Schofield of ChipWizards will remap a standard ECU. £400 isn't bad, when you consider the cost of a map and DTA or similar.

 

As I well know, its all in the mapping, so find one of the good guys!

[joris_andriesse 8]

I run a 2.0L thermo housing and cam sensor on a 1.9L head. It fits perfectly but the trick is you have to fit the cam seal on the inlet cam before pressing on the cam sensor.

 

Hey Peter,

 

I supose you use one of your own MI cams? How did you make the sensor 'read' the cam. Did you cut the cam at the end to give it the same profile as on an S16/Gti6 cam?

 

 

To solve the problem of the knock sensor, I understood that I could use the sensor of any 1.9 engine with an motronic ecu.

[petert 588]

Mi16 and S16 cams are the same. Press off the tang and press it back on to what ever cam you want. Just remember to put a seal on the cam first, if you're using a 1.9L head. You can even grind the cam with the tang in place if you so desire.

 

GTi6 cams have their sensor on the cam pulley. It's the same sensor, but mounted in a different position.

Edited May 29, 2011 by petert