[car_overhaul] Project Jalopy

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

I've been pleasantly surprised by the lightened on my 6 engine, really livened it up.

Good write up

[allye 530 3 Cars]

70,000ish mile vts engine, sounds familar great right up, as with anything you do this will be one of the best conversions out there! Look forward to more updates.

[Batfink 201]

The lightened flywheel makes a noticeable difference. I rate it as one of the best mods I did on my 205

[Anthony 1,003]

With intermittent showers the order of the day and once again stopping me from being able to do the Emerald K3 conversion on my other 205, I decided instead to crack on with fitting the pile of parts that I'd amassed and getting the new engine a step closer being ready to fit

 

 

First up was fitting the lightened flywheel using with new bolts from Peugeot, having replaced the crank oil seal as a sensible precaution whilst the engine was out - the old seal wasn't leaking, but had been replaced at some point using a cheap pattern seal and covered with thick smear of sealant... not exactly confidence inspiring.

 

Fitted an 8v Jetronic timing plate (reshaped slightly to clear the Motronic 60-2 timing teeth) that I'd removed from the old 1.6 engine, which makes an easy way to establish TDC and to check ignition timing as described on Petert's website

 

 

Next up was fitting the Petert reground inlet cam and timing it up with the new cambelt, tensioners and waterpump.

 

Firstly, a side by side comparison of the reground cam (left) against a standard GTi-6 cam (right)

 

 

The picture is slightly misleading as it doesn't really show how much material has been removed from the base circle on the reground cam, but looking at the shape of the lobe you can just about make out the increase in duration from the slightly wider and less pointy shape of the lobe.

 

The hydraulic lifters were all in very good condition, with minimal scuffing to the sides and no wear present on the tops. Only took a few minutes with some wet'n'dry paper and a flat surface to prep all eight for the new cam to ensure that everything beds together nicely

 

 

A liberal coating of engine assembly lube and the new cam was fitted together with a new cam seal, and then the cam carrier was refitted and torqued down, followed by the inner cambelt cover and cam pulley. Took the opportunity to replace the cam seal on the exhaust cam whilst it was all apart, although again, more as a precaution as there was no evidence of any leakage.

 

New column was screwed into the block for the early style tensioner, and then the new cambelt, tensioner and waterpump were fitted having first locked everything in position - crank pulley hasn't slipped on this engine, and still lines up perfectly having checked it against an old 8v solid pulley.

 

Timing the cam in was next, and this is a job that I absolutely hate on GTi-6 engines - there's hardly any access to the lifter bucket to reliably get the DTI gauge to measure lift, and you're constantly fighting against the force of the double valve springs, ready to spin the cam back at the first opportunity, often resulting in a couple of bent valves given that there's precious little valve to piston clearance on these engines.

 

Thankfully, Petert has made the job very easy, as the cam timing was pretty much perfect on the standard timing holes and just needed a smidgen of advance to be spot on with his recommended lift @ TDC figure of 1.06mm. So be thumbs up to Petert for doing what seemingly most cam manufacturers can't (or rather I suspect, won't) and making an aftermarket cam that's a doddle to fit and time up!

 

 

All turned over fine with no valve contact as expected, and with the spark plugs back in, there was strong compression evident on all four cylinders so it should all be good. Not that it will stop me from s**ting a brick when I turn the key for the first time of course...

 

You can also see the Group N rear engine mount that I've fitted.

 

Next my attentions turns to the auxilery belt and working out a way to routing and tensioning the belt, as with the aircon pump removed the existing setup is no good at all. Given that I want to retain the PAS pump, what I should logically do is buy a "Rallye" tensioner setup (it's not unique to the 306 Rallye despite the impression the GTi-6 forum gives, but it is fairly scarce as most 2.0 16v engines had aircon as standard) which comprises of a different tensioner, idler and belt, and a handful of bolts for mounting and tensioning it.

 

The problem is that my (distant) Scottish ancestry comes to the fore at this point and finds the idea of paying over £100 just to tension the auxiliary belt a little hard to justify, particularly when whilst not doing it on a shoestring, I am trying to complete the build on a comparitively modest budget. Making use of parts that I already had laying around and which are very common and cheap to replace, I came up with the following mock-up

 

 

Very simple setup, re-using the idler from the existing setup, and then using an old cambelt tensioner mounted in a pre-existing threaded hole to tension the belt as people have successfully done on non-PAS/AC GTi-6 installs previously. Certainly I can't see any obvious reason why it won't work once I've sourced the appropriate length belt and fitted a decent tensioner that hadn't been left outside in the scrap pile for weeks - the tensioner should be easily accessible from the drivers side front wheelarch, there's plenty of belt wrapped around the pulleys, and the belt is away from anything that it could catch on or snag. And the best bit is that other than the cost of the replacement belt, it's basically free providing that you're using an earlier engine with a 136 tooth cambelt setup.

 

The only slight problem is that because of the design of the cambelt cover, you won't be able to use a full 6-rib belt as it will foul against the raised part of the cover - however, given that it is no longer driving the aircon pump and has more belt on the various pulleys (thus reducing the risk of slippage) compared to standard, I really can't see any problem using a 5 rib belt for the job - hell, the standard 205 PAS setup uses a 4 rib belt and that works just fine. The picture above is the 6 rib belt overhanging by one rib, so it's effectively a 5 rib belt.

 

 

As you have probably guessed from the photos, there's been a lot of cleaning and making the engine presentable and ready for dropping into the 205 along with the fitting of parts mentioned above - it's taken a fair amount of elbow grease, but it's come out very well I'd say with it gleaming and would probably pass for a brand new engine. OK, so I cheated and painted the block itself, but all the alloy has been cleaned up and is pretty much spotless, the whole engine could pass for nearly-new.

 

Utterly futile of course given that it's going into the harsh, dirty environment that is a 205 engine bay...

[j_turnell 137 3 Cars]

Looking good Ant, however i have noticed in the last few months you have been doing lots of cleaning!, everything ok mate?

[Anthony 1,003]

I know - all this cleaning and painting just isn't natural... who's taken the real Anthony and who's this imposter?

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Could you take a close up pic of the timing holes in the cam pulleys please, want to see how much advance you've given it.

Is the inlet cam pulley timing hole far away from it's original position in the head?

Hope that makes sense

[welshpug 1,661]

he hasnt "advanced" it, just set it to the angle specified by Peter

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Right ok. Doesn't he supply them with offset woodruff keys?

I'm trying to get on his website but phones throwing a wobbler

[welshpug 1,661]

nope, no need for the RS engine due to the pulleys.

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

But if that's the case the cam timing hole/tang thing will be in a different position (vs timing hole in head).

Ie the inlet pulley won't time up...

Or am I missing something?

 

The pulley is separate from the part which locates the cam.

[welshpug 1,661]

you'e quite right yes...

[Anthony 1,003]

I'm not quite sure what benefit a picture would be, seeing as cam timing isn't the sort of thing that you can do based on a picture, least of all on an engine like a GTi-6 where there's very little valve-piston clearance at TDC.

 

To give you an idea of how close it is though, the timing hole pegs slide easily into the crank pulley and exhaust cam, and the inlet is close enough that you can just about wiggle/force the timing peg in - the timing hole in the pulley is probably something like 0.5-1.0mm advanced past being lined up on the head. When I said a smidgen of advance, I really do mean a smidgen - it was something in the region of 0.1mm of lift at TDC difference, and thus would have run just fine with the pulleys timed up as standard.

 

Most aftermarket cams by comparison are nowhere close to the standard pulley holes, hence my pleasant surprise at this one from Petert

 

Looking at it, the engine is actually in the position where the timing holes line up in the picture above for what it's worth, although it's not quite taken square-on so the pulley looks more out of line than it actually is. I will reilliterate though absolutely not to attempt to duplicate what worked for me on another engine without verifying the figures with a dial gauge, and certainly not if you're using a different camshaft that will have differing timing specs.

 

You're more than welcome to borrow my dial gauge if you want to accurately check the cam timing.

 

Remember that even the later style pulleys like on this engine are adjustable, as the center part (that's attached to the end of the cam) moves seperately to the outer part (that the cambelt turns) when you release the tension from the bolt. It's not a design that I particularly like in truth, but I've heard of a few instances of the earlier style pulleys suffering fatigue cracking and upon weighing it up decided that the later pulleys were the better option even if they are more fiddly to adjust in the first place.

 

Also remember that the timing hole in the pulley and head is only accurate for standard cams and standard cam timing. As soon as you swap the cam, or you want to adjust the timing from the standard figures, all bets are off and the holes lining up will no longer be an indicator that the timing is correct (although in this instance, it is near as damn it correct)

 

(sorry if the reply is a little disjointed - I'd originally started replying to your first point and there had been a few replies in the meantime)

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Ok thanks for that. I'm very tempted by a petert regrind, just trying to get my head around all the lift atdc stuff. New territory you see.

Advance is turning the cam pulley clockwise if your looking at it straight on from the side?

Don't worry not going to copy a picture, recipe for disaster!

 

I've had an early design pulley fail definately a no no!

Edited September 19, 2011 by Paul_13

[welshpug 1,661]

advance is moving the cam not the pulley

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Ok, clockwise then?

[kyepan 291]

we can have a go together with my dti gauge if you want, i've wanted to find and mark tdc then measure valve lift properly for a while, i also have a book on camshafts and how to do it. etc.

 

Anthony - do you measure from the back of the lifter?

 

cheers

J

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

That'd be spot on J

[Anthony 1,003]

Ok, clockwise then?

Yes. On the inlet cam, advancing the cam is turning it clockwise (from the timing belt end) without turning the crank, which increases lift @ TDC.

 

Best thing to do is to time it up to the suppliers specifications initially, and then if you need to fine tune the power delivery, the general rule is that advancing the inlet moves the power band down the rev range (ie more mid-range) and retarding it moves the power back up the rev range (ie more top end). Whilst not an issue on a mild cam like I'm using, on hotter cams (and even some milder grinds) you'll need to check that there is sufficient clearance available to be set the timing correctly and to be able to safely advance it further should you want to.

 

Anthony - do you measure from the back of the lifter?

Yes, measured lift with the end of the DTI on the top of the lifter bucket. Access is terrible on a GTi-6 thanks to the thicker body of the cam covering more of the lifter, and the cam and valvetrain being sat deeper down thanks to the design of the cam carrier assembly - an Mi16 is much easier to do in my experience, and an 8v is very easy indeed.

[feb 47]

Anthony, you too have been corrupted by the power

Saying this, I can understand and I hope I won't find the 205 too slow as after having driven a friend's S2000 and although I loved it I found its engine a bit "empty/hollow" at lower/mid revs (much better than a B16 low down but not if you compare it with the FSTI). Time will tell I guess.

What are your expectations power/torque wise from this lump with the petert stage 1 cam?

Good plan to keep the SBC lump in the garage though

Edited September 20, 2011 by feb

[Anthony 1,003]

What are your expectations power/torque wise from this lump with the petert stage 1 cam?

I'm interested less in the actual hard figures than I am with how it feels and the power delivery, which is why I've rarely bothered dyno'ing any of my cars.

 

I guess something around the 170hp and 145lbft ballpark would be what I'd realistically expect from the new engine.

 

That's probably in the region of 25-30hp and 20-25lbft over what I'd have expected from the SBC engine on standard management.

[Brian M 0]

great project matey, should be a beauty when complete. On the subject of the sunroof handle assembly (again), is that an original external motor/external nut? I've tried to get some from pug but the external bolt's the only piece i cannot get apparently priced at a fiver each or something?!

 

[Anthony 1,003]

I had the same issue - there are (or was at the time!) some dealers with stock of them if you can encourage your dealer to do a nationwide search, but like an ever-growing number of parts, none available from Peugeot any more.

 

In the end I managed to source a replacement dome nut via a wanted thread from someone on here who had a spare in his garage, and then just bought the new seals from Peugeot for pennies and replaced the screws with a pair of generic replacements.

[Anthony 1,003]

With my other 205 now finished, sold and tearing around Germany with a grinning Greek at the wheel, it's time to crack on with the Jalopy again before I start getting 205 withdrawal symptoms and end up buying another to get my fix.

 

Fitted the refurbished GTi-6 injectors that I'd had done by Mad Professor a while back and had been sat around since. As you can make out from the report printout that came back with them, they certainly benefitted from being cleaned and service with the flow rate being over 10% down on a couple of them beforehand and the spray pattern being less than ideal - after cleaning they were spot-on though.

 

 

Fitted a brand new genuine Peugeot (Valeo) clutch 1.9 Mi16 style 215mm clutch that had again been sat around in a box gathering dust waiting for me to do something with it. It's actually technically for a 605 2.0 8v and hence I snapped it up for a bargain on eBay because no one else realised that it was exactly the same fitment as the Mi16 clutches that people were paying silly money for. I love it when that happens

 

 

Having picked up a new 82 degree thermostat from Euro Car Parts (part number 209545360 - £6.94 inc VAT) and seal from Peugeot (part number 1340.48 - £1.04 inc VAT) I fitted them using an old 205Parts GTi-6 thermostat adapter that I'd had sat around for a few years. The eagle-eyed amongst you might notice that there's more than a passing resemblance to the thermostat adapter that another company later started selling...

 

 

I replaced the single Phase 2 VTS coolant sensor with the earlier style, and fitted the pair of 8v senders for the dashboard coolant gauge and warning light. I know that you can use the 2-pin 306 sensor, but I wasn't sure how well matched that was to the 205 dash and since I had a couple of newish 8v senders, it made sense to play it safe and have senders that I know match the dash perfectly.

[Anthony 1,003]

I had originally intended to use my existing BE3 1.6 GTi gearbox that had been in my other 205, but given that I had the supposidly "good" 1.9 'box that actually had a nasty whiney reverse which needed to go to Miles to be fixed, it made sense to use the ratios from that and mate it to the 3.94 final drive that I'd had sat on the shelf for a few years whilst it was in pieces.

 

My theory was that with the added torque of the GTi-6 engine I could get away with a slightly longer final drive whilst maintaining the same frantic fun I loved. The 3.94 final drive is approximately 3% longer than the 4.06 final drive used in the 1.6 GTi gearbox, and the net result of that is that it will give me a similar cruise in 5th to the Mi16/VTS gearbox (19.7mph/1000rpm vs 20.0mph/1000rpm) but keeps the close ratios of 1.9 GTi gearset rather than the oddly spaced ratios from the Mi16/VTS gearbox that I'm not personally keen on.

 

That's the theory anyway - the proof of the puddling will be in the eating as they say.

 

It's actually very similar to the gear set used by Gutmann on their 1.9's - the only difference is that Gutmann used a slightly longer 5th, 0.81 vs 0.87 for lower revs on cruise.

 

Miles worked his magic, and in the end there was very little of the original gearbox left by the time I collected it last night - the reverse gear cogs had all been swapped out, the input shaft ended up needing to be swapped, the output shaft and crownwheel were swapped to change the final drive, which just left the case and the original 1.9 1st through 5th cogs. He also ground the casing to accept a Tran-X whilst it was apart to save risk getting alloy dust and swarf inside doing it when it was built up.

 

Initially though, I'm not going to fit the Tran-X from my other gearbox, but instead the Quaife that I'd kept from the Sorrento GTi-S that I put back to standard. I figure that since I'm building the car as a road car, it makes sense to give the Quaife a shot and see how I get on - it's not like it's particularly difficult to swap the diff over at a later date if I decide that I want the much more agressive action of the Tran-X.

 

First though, I need to buy a replacement set of crownwheel bolts as I'd stripped all but two when I swapped the diffs over for Fivos - apparently that's quite a common occurance, which seems bizarre but I'll trust Miles on that one seeing as he's stripped more BE gearboxes than probably just about anyone else. Surprisingly, they appear to be cheaper from Peugeot than from the local fastener place - £4.16 inc VAT for a set of 8 from Peugeot (part number 3119.63).

 

Big thanks goes to Tom (Cheesegrater) who gave me the remains of his old 205 gearbox to strip for the parts to repair my gearbox. Much appreciated!