Running In Procedure

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Morning all,

 

The following is about a GTI6 engine (XU10J4RS)

 

After bending 14 valves I decided to get the head rebuilt again and all new valves fitted. The crank has also had a polish and new bearings.

 

Also due to the block having to be swapped over, I was going to swap the existing pistons, rods and rings into the new block.

The block still has the honing marks just about.

 

Now I understand there is a problem with honing these blocks, the rings may not seat again.

 

Obviously I need assembly paste, any recommendations?

 

What oil to use?

 

And any other pointers would be helpful.

 

Thanks

[oilman 7]

The Millers and Redline assembly greases are quite popular and good quality.

 

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-885-greases.aspx

 

After that, go for the Millers CRO

 

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-60229-millers-oils-cro-10w-40-competition-running-in-oil.aspx

 

You want to change it after about 50 miles, then 200, then 500 and then put the good oil in at 1000 miles.

 

Cheers

 

Tim

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Ok thanks for that, will enquire.

 

Any other thoughts on the rings?

Can I leave engine idling?

what can i rev it to?

[Cameron 16]

Don't leave it idling!

 

I wouldn't trust the honing marks on the block, while they appear to still be there they won't have the sharp edges you need to bed in new rings and make them seal properly; these are generally worn down after a very short amount of time.

 

Personally, I'm a fan of running an engine in hard. So start the car for the first time, bed in cams if you need to, then go straight out to the closest dual carriageway (it'll warm up on the way) and so a series of run-ups and run-downs, then get back home and change the oil. You may have read about it already, but just in case you haven't the procedure is: full throttle from ~2.5k up to 3/4 max rpm (~5k), then snap the throttle closed and coast down again, and repeat a few times. The first time you do it the engine will feel totally gutless as most of the gas will be blowing-by the rings, then as they get worn into the cylinder bores the engine will feel much more eager. There's a video on my Photobucket account (supermuff) of me and James doing this when I first built up my engine. (ps.. it's important to get your breathers right, otherwise you'll end up with oil all over the engine bay like I did! )

 

After this, you need to change the oil immediately (you'll see why when it comes out!) then take it easy for the next 100 miles or so and change it again. Then spend the next 200 miles gently building up to normal use. It's important not to dawdle round on light throttle all the time or sit at one engine speed, but don't go hooning it round at full throttle and max rpm either. This 300 miles is used to bed in the bearings, so you need to start off gentle and work your way up to max rpm.

 

So my advice would be to either give the bores a very light honing, or a full hone and plus-size pistons (depending on your budget), otherwise don't bother replacing the rings at all; your old ones will seal better than new rings on old bores ever will.

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Brilliant information there, cheers Cameron.

Will have to get ryan to read this as he's got a rebuilt engine aswell.

 

Any recommendations for engine oil during the run in? Heard mixed opinions

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

I was told to find a big hill, put it in 5th and boot it from low revs to mid. Helps bed in rings apparently, probably similar to Camerons.

 

As for oil, I think I used running-in oil for 50 miles then chucked in a load of s*itty quality oil for another 100 miles. After that I filled with decent stuff till 500. Just drove it normally but not working it hard. Can't remember the exact mileage, but around 500 miles the car got taken on the PSOOC 4 Nations Tour and got thrapped on the roads and briefly on track (Folembray & 'Ring). That was about 6 years ago when my Mi was new, and it's still strong today.

 

Do you really need assembly paste for standard rebuild, thought it was more for extreme builds where valve-piston clearance checks etc is required? I didn't, just used loads of oil.

[Cameron 16]

You can get running-in oil for bedding in the pistons and again for the first 100 miles, then I'd swap to a good mineral oil for the remaining 200, then back to whatever you normally use. Pretty sure this is how I did it.

[ryan_stdt 2]

very useful infomation guys cheers, im in the same situation as Paul apart from i have left the piston rings alone and only replaced big ends and main bearings and had the crank polished.

 

so.....

 

first 50 miles use running in oil (such as oilman recommends) and use the running in porcedure the cameron recommends (full throttle from ~2.5k up to 3/4 max rpm (~5k), then snap the throttle closed and coast down again, and repeat a few times)

 

next 100 miles use good mineral and take it easy (but not too easy)

 

and then from 150- 450miles fill it with good oil and gentley bring it up to normal use and change the oil again for good stuff at 500

 

sorry if ive read it wrong but i really want to get it write first time

 

cheers

[Cameron 16]

Noohoooooo no no no.. You only need to run in hard if you've changed the rings! If you've only done a bearing rebuild then run in as normal by taking it easy and gradually building up to normal use through 300-500 miles.

[ryan_stdt 2]

arhh ok, got it crystal clear now, hopefully i should be doing this next time im off shift

 

thanks very much for your help mate

[Daviewonder 533 3 Cars]

Does anyone know if it's worth using Flushing Oil when I start my engine up for the first time after having the crank machined and shells replaced? Is it ok to start it and let it run up on the drive way or does it need to be driven straight away?

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Would be handy to know this, I'm fretting taking it to the MOT centre and he leaves it running

[Cameron 16]

I think the not leaving it idling thing is only a concern when you've changed the rings, as it can stop them from being bedded in properly, if they're already worn in or you only changed the bearings then I don't know if it matters so much. Personally I would warm it up by varying the revs between idle and 2000rpm, this is how I warm my track car up anyway as I don't like to leave it idling and it's much quicker. Just use your head and don't rev the bollocks off it.

 

As for oil, I think the idea of using a crap oil for the first few miles when you're bedding the rings in is to flush all the crap out anyway.

[Anthony 1,003]

The idling issue is two-fold

 

1) Bedding in the cam(s)

2) Bedding in the rings

 

If you're not doing either of those, then there's no issue - just crank it over a few times with the plugs removed prior to initial startup to build oil pressure, and slowly build up the maximum revs over a couple of hundred miles or so. Even the later arguably isn't really needed if the tolerances are all good in the first place, but certainly it won't do any harm.

 

To bed in the cam(s) into the lifters, keep the engine at around 2000-2500rpm for around 20 minutes or so. Do not allow to idle.

 

To bed in the rings, you ideally want to alternate between sustained full and no load to force the rings against the cylinder, rather than just pottering around on light load and risk glazing it. Typically accelerating hard (WOT) in a high gear for several seconds and then letting it coast down on overrun, repeating over and over, seems to work well on the few engines that I've rebuilt and bedding in using that method - certainly they've had good, equal compression and not used any oil afterwards anyway.

 

If you need to bed the rings in and MOT the car then that's a bit problemsome, but what I've done is to take a distinctly long route to the MOT station so that you can get the bulk of the bedding in done before hand. What you absolutely do not want to do is drive it straight to the MOT and for them to then leave it idling for 20-30 minutes - a friend of a friend did this with a freshly rebuilt engine, and glazed the hell out of the bores so the rings never bedding in properly, meaning the engine had to come apart again for a deglaze and new rings...

 

(mind you, most new cars seem to be fine, and I'm sure 95%+ of these I'm sure aren't bedded in properly, instead left idling for ages, shunted around the forecourt, off transporters/boats etc and then gently bimbled around by Aunt Betty on her way to and from the bowles club)

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Thanks Anthony nice precise info on what I needed

 

I've had it idling for about 5 mins in total, having started it 3 times, next time it starts I'll be taking it for its run in drive.

 

I shouldn't of glazed the bores by now I hope

 

Also is using oil flush advised or is a no no?

[Cameron 16]

I'd love to know what OEMs do to bed in new engines properly, there used to be a section in the handbook about the running in procedure / duration but, given that most drivers now don't give a toss about the fact that the thing they're driving is a machine, I wouldn't be surprised if this has been omitted and is done in the engine plant or off the production line.

 

Although saying that it would take masses of time / resources given mass production volumes.. Maybe they still get by on a paragraph in the owner's manual as a liability waiver..?

[Anthony 1,003]

As I understand it, much of the "running in" procedure is to bed parts into one another so that it all move freely and seals properly, which I guess with the tight tolerances that modern engines are built to in the factory is increasingly unneeded.

 

Some more exotic stuff certainly is run up at the factory though, either the engine on a dyno or the car on a rolling road type setup, and usually driven in anger as well, but I struggle to believe that happens with more run of the mill stuff due to the volumes of cars involved and the overheads and production slowdowns that it would introduce.

 

Anyway, don't you work for Ford? Surely you have ways and means at your disposal to find out this sort of thing

[Cameron 16]

I do, but I don't know anyone in engine design.

[smithy 1]

when i used to work at vauxhall they told us when on a course in Luton the engines are all run up on a test bed prior to despatch to the required vehicle factory.A small % are picked at random off the line to be hot tested to destruction to determine failure points.

[welshpug 1,657]

I've seen what happens to honda's when they get to the dealerships, VTEEEEC YOOOOO!!!!!....................

[Cameron 16]

I know what happens to McLaren SLR's when they get driven out the final trim workshop..

[Tesstuff 222]

Paul, it might be worth reading this from the self acclaimed 'master' of engine knowledge.

 

Running in tips

 

Edited September 1, 2011 by Tesstuff

[Sandy 191]

It depends how it's prepared. Engines built with high precision, good surface finishes and quality components, will be coming good after about 30 minutes of steady load running. Hence why manufacturers are able to all but eliminate traditional running in. High precision plateau honed bores and well chosen rings, will come good very quickly and good "bearings" won't need any running in at all if correctly fitted. Cams/followers are the biggest concern and as has been said, idling is to be avoided and I take the same attitude to warming up normally, drive the thing, don't sit there waiting for it to warm up!

A big concern with a new tuned engine build, is that that it won't be set up and that can impact the running in process substantially. Some people are ignorant of such things and see it as being preferable to run the engine in before setting it up, frankly it's likely that advice is probably based more on the sound of their own voice than a sensible approach to protecting your work/investment. In which case, having it dyno or rolling road run in by someone who really gives a toss, is a good idea. Reducing the run in time is down to the quality of the prep and build, taking us full circle.

Edited September 1, 2011 by Sandy

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Paul, it might be worth reading this from the self acclaimed 'master' of engine knowledge.

 

Running in tips

 

 

Funnily enough that backs up a lot of what people have said on here.

 

 

Is oil flush regarded safe to use on a fresh rebuild or no?

[Cameron 16]

Not sure about oil flush but personally I wouldn't bother with it, I reckon just use some cheap s*ite mineral oil instead. I'm not sure how "flushing" oil is that special tbh.