What Beam Should I Use?

[tomcolinjones 26]

Hello. My 205 xs shell is in the process of becoming a vts powered road rally car, I am soon to collect my next project (1.6 sorrento) intended as a road and part time track car.

I have started to build up my 309 beam, with 309 arb and torsion bars. And I have a 1.9 beam with challenge spec Bilsteins on the xs at the moment.

I was going to fit the 309 beam and vts arms to the xs, cut the arches and fit gti trim but now I am not so sure...

after reading various topics in depth it seems the extra width and stiffer ARB are not ideal for road rallying so I am contemplating (sp) fitting the 309 beam and vts arms to my new track/road car and sticking with the 1900 beam on the xs, which should let me keep the arches as standard without too much rubbing.

 

I am aware suspension setup is a personal thing, but I would like some educated input to which car to fit the 309 beam to. obviously the xs/vts will be a competition road rally car and the sorrento a play thing.

 

I value your input,

Thanks

Tom.

[welshpug 1,655]

I'd keep it simple and just fit bigger torsion bars to your existing beam along with appropriate dampers.

[tomcolinjones 26]

I'd keep it simple and just fit bigger torsion bars to your existing beam along with appropriate dampers.

 

something like 21mm torsion bars on the 205 beam?

[jord294 91]

i'd advise anyone who plans on using there 205 as a road/rally car, to use thicker bars on the original beam

 

also to keep the ride height as it came from factory

[tomcolinjones 26]

i'd advise anyone who plans on using there 205 as a road/rally car, to use thicker bars on the original beam

 

also to keep the ride height as it came from factory

 

can you supply stiffer torsion bars for 205 beams?

[welshpug 1,655]

Anthony and Chris Penrose can

[Baz 421]

Whaever matches the front, and it's a rally car, not a road/track car, why would you need the extra track width and camber on the rear of a rally car?

 

i'd advise anyone who plans on using there 205 as a road/rally car, to use thicker bars on the original beam

 

also to keep the ride height as it came from factory

 

A road or a rally car? Which? Or a road-rally car?

 

No offence, but you have absolutely no experience in that field hence you can't really accurately advise on that, you'd be better off advising a look at the old rally build books.

 

Again, the rear should depend on the front.

[tomcolinjones 26]

Again, the rear should depend on the front.

 

I have 309 wishbones on the front, with gravel springs on matching challenge spec bilsteins.

I think im going to stick with the 205 beam on the road rally car, and use the 309 beam on the road / track car.

 

I have no idea why i thaught a 309 beam would be good on a road rally car. maybe to help prevent LOOS...

[welshpug 1,655]

Probably because of the sheep factor, wider = better apparently

 

if you look back on the forum for ride heights there are minimum heights posted from the old PTS build books for the challenge and group A cars, no specific heights were stated but some were suggested for each type of torsion bar IIRC.

 

Those minimum heights would have been for tarmac, gravel is likely to be closer to standard, road rally really depends on the type of events.

[tomcolinjones 26]

Probably because of the sheep factor, wider = better apparently

 

if you look back on the forum for ride heights there are minimum heights posted from the old PTS build books for the challenge and group A cars, no specific heights were stated but some were suggested for each type of torsion bar IIRC.

 

Those minimum heights would have been for tarmac, gravel is likely to be closer to standard, road rally really depends on the type of events.

 

Thanks fort he help WP, great advice as always.

I have searched for ride heights through google but didnt come up with much. iI think standard will be about right, as i have had no problems with it ( even on base model xs beam) so with 21mm torsion bars (awaiting on price from Anthony) i cant see it being a problem.

 

with 21mm on the back, and 180lbs springs on the front, will this set the car up for oversteer? or balanced? i feel i may have to go a little stiffer on the front due to the extra weight of the xu10j4rs, if i do go up to 190/200 lbs front springs will this make the car understeer heavily? or will it be ok?

 

Thanks

Tom.

[tomcolinjones 26]

Probably because of the sheep factor

 

WELSHpug lol

[jord294 91]

Whaever matches the front, and it's a rally car, not a road/track car, why would you need the extra track width and camber on the rear of a rally car?

 

 

 

A road or a rally car? Which? Or a road-rally car?

 

No offence, but you have absolutely no experience in that field hence you can't really accurately advise on that, you'd be better off advising a look at the old rally build books.

 

Again, the rear should depend on the front.

 

sorry baz, we can't all be perfect

 

road-rally car is what i meant

 

obviously a road car and a rally car will have completely different set ups

[tomcolinjones 26]

sorry baz, we can't all be perfect

 

road-rally car is what i meant

 

obviously a road car and a rally car will have completely different set ups

 

 

I value all input. And as everyone has recommended, Use the 205 1.9 gti beam with uprated torsion bars. and this is what i now intend to do.

the 309/vts beam will be put to good use on the sorrento (when i get it)

Both cars will be using 309 wishbones (bottom arms) on the front

unsure what dampers to go for on the sorrento.

[welshpug 1,655]

wont do much better than proper bilstein gravel or tarmac dampers.

 

I mentioned 1.6 gti beam earlier btw, better handbrake

[edbar 6]

I dont understand why so many people avoid wide track now? It got me worried about my 205 potentially understeering like a pig, but I took it to mallory when it was pissing down and had no problems whatsoever! Mine is a 309 beam with xsara vts arms solid mounted, 309 front wishbones and ARB, 306 Kayaba adjustable standard platform shocks with unknown front springs and awful ditch finder tyres. Handles lovely and very neutral. If it is so bad why did the 306 maxi's have wide track? Im no expert just curious as to the reason behind the trend moving away.

[tomcolinjones 26]

I dont understand why so many people avoid wide track now? It got me worried about my 205 potentially understeering like a pig, but I took it to mallory when it was pissing down and had no problems whatsoever! Mine is a 309 beam with xsara vts arms solid mounted, 309 front wishbones and ARB, 306 Kayaba adjustable standard platform shocks with unknown front springs and awful ditch finder tyres. Handles lovely and very neutral. If it is so bad why did the 306 maxi's have wide track? Im no expert just curious as to the reason behind the trend moving away.

 

I think it is because larger arb and torsion bars have become easily available for the 205 beam, whereas before 405 mi16 bars where available to fit the 309 beam giving a cheap stiffer upgrade.

also the 309 beam is slightly stiffer in standard form.

 

now i guess its quite cheap to get 24/25/26mm arbs and 21/23/24mm torsion bars for a good price to fit 205 sized beams.

 

maybe for track and road use the extra width is desirable, but apparently for road rallying it is not.

[feb 47]

I *think* (having no experience as I have never driven a 205 with a 309 rear beam) that the 309 beam conversion was popular as it comes with thicker ARB and torsion bars, increases the rear track and hence it is a cost efficient solution (to swap to a 309 rather than rebuild a 205 one).

 

Asking the above question to SBC many years ago I was told it spoils the balance of the car (I guess a 309 front would be needed to balance the car?)

Saying this, their negative camber kit increases the rear track but not as much as a 309 beam does.

 

Suspension is something completely subjective though and people are bound to have different opinions.

Edited March 27, 2011 by feb

[tomcolinjones 26]

wont do much better than proper bilstein gravel or tarmac dampers.

 

I mentioned 1.6 gti beam earlier btw, better handbrake

 

 

i have bx front calipers mounted, with a hydraulic handbrake. with m/c taken off the original cable handbrake lever, (cables fitted also) and good pads. IIRC the pistons are 50mm, and did a great job on the back of the Xsara i took them off (obv not standard fitment, the previous owner was using it as a spectator car for road rallys and things...he also rallys an XS). so i shouldnt have any problems with stretched cables, or seized self ajusters e.t.c..... i dont like drums as you can tell

[Henry Yorke 269 3 Cars]

Just a thought, a non GTI shell and a 309 beam would result in a lot of arch issues I guess, even on 14" wheels.

[edbar 6]

Just a thought, a non GTI shell and a 309 beam would result in a lot of arch issues I guess, even on 14" wheels.

 

 

I have an xs shell and there has been alot of cutting and folding ( still need to finish ) on 14" so it is a pain.

[pug_ham 244 3 Cars]

Just a thought, a non GTI shell and a 309 beam would result in a lot of arch issues I guess, even on 14" wheels.

Especially if you use the VTS radius armns, these have a wider stance again due to the different stub axles needing different discs to a 1.9 205 / 309 GTI disc.

 

Graham.

[Batfink 201]

Just a thought, a non GTI shell and a 309 beam would result in a lot of arch issues I guess, even on 14" wheels.

 

It works on 13" wheels though

[Baz 421]

sorry baz, we can't all be perfect

 

road-rally car is what i meant

 

obviously a road car and a rally car will have completely different set ups

 

Thanks! And no, we can't, but we can try a little harder to avoid mis-advising/informing people, rather than just pointing out how perfect i may be.

 

And again, false statement, what kind of rally car? The term 'rally' is used loosely, but 'rally cars' themselves wll be very different specs depending on what surfaces they compete on, it may be surprising but suspension-wise some rally cars may actually be a similar set up to a road car, again making your statement possibly misleading although may be a little pedantic!

 

 

 

I don't mean offence but please don't offer advice on things you don't actually understand or actually know about fully, it's in the rules and guidelines and i mean generally rather than just yourself Andy.

[tomcolinjones 26]

Just a thought, a non GTI shell and a 309 beam would result in a lot of arch issues I guess, even on 14" wheels.

 

thats why i would have cut the arches, and fitted gti trims, im not doing it now tho. leaving it with base model rear arches.

[tomcolinjones 26]

Especially if you use the VTS radius armns, these have a wider stance again due to the different stub axles needing different discs to a 1.9 205 / 309 GTI disc.

 

Graham.

 

I have read somewhere that removing something to do with the ABS, a spacer or a castle shaped ring, you can then fit 205/309 discs at the correct offset to fit in the calipers. without having to change over the stub axle. this narrows the track a bit, maybe 20mm each side or something. i am sure i have read it on the forum, but cant find it.

 

205 beam is going on the xs, possibly with 21mm torsion bars. (depends on funding)

309 beam is going on the road / track sorrento, along with the vts arms and some torsion bars off a Panther beam, and bigger ARB size unsure of yet, maybe something to match up with front 309 arb.

 

Does anyone know if the AVO adjustable struts and read dampers off Peter LLoyd Rallying are good? and if they are sold in pairs or singulars like the bilsteins on the website?

 

Thanks for all your help. has saved me a lot of bother with swapping beams over. once they are refurbed and rebuilt.

Looking foreward to thrashing the thing round the lanes and scaring myself in the first 16v 205 i have driven properly!

 

Cheers, Tom