Differences 205 Xs And Euro Rally

[rallyeracing 0]

Hello

I have some questions about the 205 XS (TU3S, 1360cc) / Euro Rallye (TU24, 1294) engines.

 

Are the TU3S and TU24 engine blocks the same?

Is the different capacity made by bore (piston, liners) or stroke (crankshafts, rods)?

Does the Rally have a higher compression ratio?

If yes, is the difference made by the piston or the combustion chamber or both?

Was there ever a 1.6 version of the TU aluminium engine?

Do the XS and Rally have the same cylinder had?

Are the valves and port sizes the same?

I think the camshafts are different.

What about the exhaust manifold, oil pump and the ignition?

 

A lot of questions, the reason for this is that I want to convert my XS engine to Rallye spec (or higher).

 

And one more question.

Is it possible to put the internals of a BE3 (1.9 XU) gearbox into a MA (TU) gearbox or are they complete different designs?

 

Thank you for your help.

Thomas

[Lan 24 1 Cars]

Are the TU3S and TU24 engine blocks the same? no

Is the different capacity made by bore (piston, liners) or stroke (crankshafts, rods)? just shorter stroke

Does the Rally have a higher compression ratio? yes afaik

If yes, is the difference made by the piston or the combustion chamber or both? both afaik

Was there ever a 1.6 version of the TU aluminium engine? no

Do the XS and Rally have the same cylinder had? no

Are the valves and port sizes the same? no

I think the camshafts are different. yes

What about the exhaust manifold, oil pump and the ignition? different

 

Is it possible to put the internals of a BE3 (1.9 XU) gearbox into a MA (TU) gearbox or are they complete different designs? there different

[trogboy 17]

Lan's got it all spot on. The TU24 and TU3S are not that similar really, only sharing parts like the oil and water pumps, exhaust manifold, fuel pump, thermostat housing etc.

 

IIRC the TU24 block is the same as that used in the TU1 engines as it works with a shoter stroke and lower deck height to maintain compression.

[RossD 44]

IIRC the TU24 block is the same as that used in the TU1 engines as it works with a shoter stroke and lower deck height to maintain compression.

 

The higher compression is actually achieved by using domed pistons. The chamber size on the TU24 head is actually bigger than the TU3S - about 32.5cc when I got my hands on one a few years ago which is the same as the other big valve TU heads.

The bottom end is loosly TU1 based, with block and crank coming from that. Rods are the same as those used in the 'blacktop' TU5 (1.6) engine and pistons and liners are bespoke for the TU24.

 

Funnily enough, the later TU2J2 (The same size engine in the 106 Rallye) is very different again even though to the untrained eye they look identical!

Edited February 11, 2011 by RossD

[rallyeracing 0]

Found this on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_TU_engine

 

TU1__1124cc___bore 72mm____stroke 69mm

TU2__1294cc___bore 75mm____stroke 73mm__short stroke

TU3__1360cc___bore 75mm____stroke 77mm __long stroke

TU5__1587cc___bore 78.5mm___stroke 82mm

 

If that is correct, then TU1 and TU2 cranks could not be the same.

 

Which engines have the (8V) big valve TU heads?

Do they all have the same valves and port sizes?

Is there a big valve head with a smaller chamber size than the TU3S? (To increase the compression ratio on the TU3S)

 

 

Are TU5 8V and 16V blocks the same?

Are they cast iron or aluminium?

[RossD 44]

Apologies - You are correct, it is a different crankshaft.

 

TU5 Blocks are cast iron, the 8v and 16v blocks are different but only slightly (Breathers and drilling for extra tensioner on the 16V). You can make a very nice 8v TU5 by using the 16V pistons to bring up the compression to about 11:1. (May need to machine the pistons slightly depending on the cam you use)

 

No 'Big Valve' head with a smaller chamber size than the TU3S head. If you wanted to increase the compression ratio, you could try using the domed pistons from the 95 - 100bhp 1.4 engine used in the 106 XSi (TU3J2). This also has the big valve head.

 

205 Rallye (TU24) has different inlet port spacing to the later multi-point injection heads with big valves. (I.e TU2J2, TU3J2, TU5J2). TU24 also lacks holes for injectors as it was a carb engine.

[rallyeracing 0]

Thanks for your help.

[Steffrallye 0]

is it not possible just to run a 1.3 106 rallye engine but convert to carbs? or keep the injection system if it was me. seems like alot simpler way.

[welshpug 1,661]

yup!

[205Rallee 59]

Differences between 205XS and Euro Rallye?

 

Er loads, the Rallye is brilliant, but I'd never have bought one if it hadn't been for a white Phase 1.5 XS I drove in 1989, what a revvy beast that was

[MattCoggins 3]

Hi guys, ive found the forum when searching for engine information for my 205 Rally.

 

I have just bought my first 205 and it is a 205 Euro Rallye, which has been part prepped for hillclimbs and sprints which I intend to use the car for.

 

For hillclimbing I can use a 1.4 engine within the class, the Euro Rallye is a 1.3.

 

I have purchased an 205 XS alloy engine (on its way from Scotland at the moment), and wonder if the Rallye head could be put onto this bottom end to give me a larger engine capacity?

 

Also, looking at the comments and information above, the combustion chamber is bigger on the Rallye head, which will reduce compression, but it has the bigger valves? Has anyone got any information on the xs valve sizes compared to the rallye?

 

Has anyone mated a 1.4 bottom end to a Rallye (carbed) head before? I dont really want to strip the Rallye bottom end to rob it for parts, but if I have too.....

 

Ive searched on the forum, but there is no answer to this question.

 

I hope you guys can help,

 

Cheers Matt

[rallyeash 155]

head won't affect the capacity. why not keep the 1400 anyway

[GeorgeXS 32]

I think ash might have the wrong end of the stick here,

As far as I remember the rallye head does fit, but dont take my word as gospel!

The rallye valve sizes are indeed bigger than xs but by how much i don't know, i think the rallye ones are the same size as the ones in a 106 rallye and xsi heads mind which might be a bit easier to find info on. The size has been mentioned on here before though, might be worth trawling the last few TU section pages for it.

Hope you do this if you can would make a great little engine!

[muddatrucker 125]

Hi guys, ive found the forum when searching for engine information for my 205 Rally.

 

I have just bought my first 205 and it is a 205 Euro Rallye, which has been part prepped for hillclimbs and sprints which I intend to use the car for.

 

For hillclimbing I can use a 1.4 engine within the class, the Euro Rallye is a 1.3.

 

I have purchased an 205 XS alloy engine (on its way from Scotland at the moment), and wonder if the Rallye head could be put onto this bottom end to give me a larger engine capacity?

 

Also, looking at the comments and information above, the combustion chamber is bigger on the Rallye head, which will reduce compression, but it has the bigger valves? Has anyone got any information on the xs valve sizes compared to the rallye?

 

Has anyone mated a 1.4 bottom end to a Rallye (carbed) head before? I dont really want to strip the Rallye bottom end to rob it for parts, but if I have too.....

 

Ive searched on the forum, but there is no answer to this question.

 

I hope you guys can help,

 

Cheers Matt

How very strange that you have the exact same name as my brother - I thought we were all related!

[MattCoggins 3]

Thanks for the reply.

 

Obviously I want the car to be as light as possible so hopefully I can mate the two together...

 

The combustion chamber volume worries me a little bit on the rallye head, but the increase in swept volume may accommodate for this.

 

Having dug around a bit, still more digging to do, the rods and domed pistons in the rallye wont work in the xs block and liners. The piston is the same diameter but the stroke is shorter.

 

My next issue is to find out if the high comp pistons available for the TU3 106 xsi steel blocked engine will fit. Im not a massive fan of skimming the head and block to get a good high compression as it can potentially reduce the amount rebuilding and repairing you can do over the life of the engine.

 

The pistons are pricey (£550) but will mean the engine is spot on.

 

Has any one else done any mixing and matching of the 2 engines? Isnt Sandy one of the top guys on these? The 1.5 engine he built for a rally brought me here from google.

 

Matt

[MattCoggins 3]

How very strange that you have the exact same name as my brother - I thought we were all related!

 

Well that only the second Matthew Coggins ive ever heard of!

[muddatrucker 125]

Well that only the second Matthew Coggins ive ever heard of!

There aren't many Coggins' in this country as far as I'm aware (at least not ones I'm related to).

[trogboy 17]

I have built a hybrid TU24/TU3S engine using the TU24 head and the bottom end from a TU3S.

 

I went to the effort of measuring the volume of the combustion chambers of both heads which I had in a handy excel spreadsheet for calculating the static CR for several different combos, but that was a couple of PCs ago not and I no longer seem to have it. Brennan (Bren_1.3) may still have a copy.

 

In any case you are right to be concernes as the upshot is that using the TU24 head with the TU3S bottom end will give you a very low CR - around 8.5 or 9:1 IIRC. The domed pistons from the 1.4 106 XSI are a reasonable option to circumvent this issue. I seem to recall that the TU24 pistons had a significantly lower pin to deck height than the TU3 pistons (remember that the TU24 has a slightly shorter stroke but a significantly shorter block.

 

Bren donated me a set of the 1.4 xsi pistons but there was a bit of damage to the skirts and time and finances got the better of me so I opted to machine down the head, removing 1.19 mm to bring compression back up.

 

If I were you I would seriously consider sticking with the TU24 lump as stock unless it is goosed, after all you are only gaining 64cc.

 

Ad

Edited January 13, 2012 by trogboy

[MattCoggins 3]

Cheers Ad, that has cleared up lots of questions.

 

I suspected that there might be differing pin heights which is why I was looking down the xsi piston route.

 

If you could find the excel spread sheet that would really help full. From memory, do you think that a combination of skimming the head and the xs bottom end and xsi standard or high comp pistons would work? The engine is a long project so I may opt for high comps when funds allow.

 

Also, to increase the stroke, comparing 1.3 to 1.4 bottom ends here, is that done with a taller block and longer rod, or longer crank throw? A longer crank throw would give me more torque which would be handy on the hills!

 

I see what your saying about the extra 64cc, but every little helps. Well it helps me because Im not that quick!

[trogboy 17]

From memory I think that you can use the 3S crank and rods, the TU24 head and the XSI pistons and that'll give you around 10.5:1. I never dry built this combo though so I can't comment on valve-piston clearance.

 

The rods don't affect the stroke it's all done by the crank - longer rods push the pistons further up the bores at TDC but they sit the same amount higher at BDC also I honestly can't remember that the differences were between the rods now - it was all about 5 years ago.

 

Whilst you may gain torque you may loose ia little revvyness due to the engine being less square - slightly different characteristics. I am pretty sure that someone on here used a different bottom end combo to build an engine for hill climbing that was 1400cc exactly. Perhaps someone else could shed more light on that as it could be food for thought?

[205Rallee 59]

Having used a Euro rallye for speed events for 20 years now, I wouldn't dismantle a TU24 to make a hybrid just to gain 60cc's. Better off starting with a 1360 and modifying that. Mike Geen (Team Geen - can't remember what his name is on the forum) in Harrogate has built some absolute flyers with the 1360 .

 

Wossner do bigger pistons for the euro rallye which will increase the capacity and keep you under 1400cc, but not sure how easy it is to machine the liners, when I looked into this (including speaking to Longmans) they were all a bit dubious so I didn't do it.

 

By the way one of my Scottish friends bought a rather tidy Euro rallye off e bay from France. Cheap flight over there, filled it to theroof with bottles of wine, brought it back here, used it for sprints for a season and then flogged it on at a tidy profit and then went and did the same again the year after! However, when he went to change the cambelt on the first one, well a 1.3 belt wouldn't fit.. a bit too short. When he checked the block it was a1360 bottom end! It drove quite nicely, but it wasn't half as revvy as a standard TU24.

 

Better to spend some money on a set of Bilstein's coil overs, Skip Brown dual rate springs,21mm TB's and 23mm ARB

[MattCoggins 3]

Having used a Euro rallye for speed events for 20 years now, I wouldn't dismantle a TU24 to make a hybrid just to gain 60cc's. Better off starting with a 1360 and modifying that. Mike Geen (Team Geen - can't remember what his name is on the forum) in Harrogate has built some absolute flyers with the 1360 .

 

Wossner do bigger pistons for the euro rallye which will increase the capacity and keep you under 1400cc, but not sure how easy it is to machine the liners, when I looked into this (including speaking to Longmans) they were all a bit dubious so I didn't do it.

 

By the way one of my Scottish friends bought a rather tidy Euro rallye off e bay from France. Cheap flight over there, filled it to theroof with bottles of wine, brought it back here, used it for sprints for a season and then flogged it on at a tidy profit and then went and did the same again the year after! However, when he went to change the cambelt on the first one, well a 1.3 belt wouldn't fit.. a bit too short. When he checked the block it was a1360 bottom end! It drove quite nicely, but it wasn't half as revvy as a standard TU24.

 

Better to spend some money on a set of Bilstein's coil overs, Skip Brown dual rate springs,21mm TB's and 23mm ARB

 

Im gald you have posted on here, I was going to contact you about your car. Do you still have it and do you still compete?

 

The info you have given me is pushing me away from the 1400 engine, but it might strip it and see whats going on inside the block and head....

 

Can you just clarify one thing... you said that the TU24 is "revvy" but the 1400 isnt so. What do you exactly mean?

 

Thanks for the info guys, really appreciate it

 

Matt

[205Rallee 59]

Im gald you have posted on here, I was going to contact you about your car. Do you still have it and do you still compete?

 

The info you have given me is pushing me away from the 1400 engine, but it might strip it and see whats going on inside the block and head....

 

Can you just clarify one thing... you said that the TU24 is "revvy" but the 1400 isnt so. What do you exactly mean?

 

Thanks for the info guys, really appreciate it

 

Matt

 

Hi Matt,

 

Yep still competing in it. I use it for hillclimbs, sprints, autosolos, track days, autotests and the occasional trip to pick up one of my lads from school!

 

Having seen your car on the other thread the number plate rings a bell, my mate's car had a red strut brace and a 4 branch manifold (but then again so do lots of them) and I'm just wondering if that was the rallye with the 1360 bottom end and the TU24 head. Not sure if you can use the original TU24 top engine mount with the 1400cc block???????

 

IMHO when they were new the 1360 xs was a brilliant engine and boy did they rev, however the TU24 was like an XS but plus plus, change up at 7,000rpm and bang right in the sweet point in the next gear. Ok it's not a torquey unit, but whenever anyone has a go in mine they can't believe it's only 1294cc. Having said that I had a very brief run in one of Mike Geens customers (Martin Rowe) 106 rallye (1360) and wow did that pull from low down (throttle bodies and management though).

 

If you need any info on these cars there is Christopher and Redtop (his car has been rebuilt to better than new - awesome) on here that I know of.

 

Regards

 

David

[batespeed 0]

the 1360 tu3s engine has a compression ratio of 9.3 to 1 but the later multi point injection 1360 engine (saxo and 106 1996 on, i think) has a compression ratio of 10.2 to 1 . this seems to be due to slightly different pistons , with a much smaller dish on the injected engine.

so if your original tu3s engine is getting a bit long in the tooth just use a saxo multi point short motor with the original tu3s head to give a higher compression ratio xs motor .

 

ive done this in a mini conversion , also puting the longer striding saxo gearbox on at the same time to compensate for the smaller 12" wheels on the mini

 

[christopher 5 1 Cars]

The Euro rallye valve sizes are huge in comparison to the xs ones I believe. They are almost the same as the 1.6 8v Tus. But it is not just about that. The rallye head out of the box massively outflows all the TU heads. You can flow an XSI head to be the same and more than the TU24 but it will take someone with considerable expertise.

 

There is about an extra 15% flow achievable by flowing a standard TU24 head, if you can find someone good enough. But it is very easy to make it worse.

 

I never race mine, but it is perfectly balanced. It is hard to explain. It just revs and revs and sings. David knows what I mean I bet.

 

I wonder if just stickin a 1360 bottom end is going to loose you time in the end. To me it would be sacrilege, but I am a purist.

 

The group A 205 rallyes have about 140bhp. This is with careful headwork, cam, balancing, forged pistons and rods.

Edited January 13, 2012 by christopher