Roll Cage For Road Legal Track Day 205

[Mart Pug 0]

Looking for opinions / advice.

 

The GTI that I'm working on at the moment will be used for around 4 track days per year and the occasional (once per month?) weekend blat.

 

So my dilemma is around the installation of a roll cage:

 

Would like one for the track for piece of mind (even though my last 106 Rallye didn't have one, and that was for similar use).

 

But am also concious of the dangers of having a cage in a road car (bang your head on it in an accident, and it'll probably be game over).

 

One suggestion I've had from a friend is to buy the really hard FIA foam padding, to cover the cage (or part of it, anyway), as opposed to the cheap stuff.

 

I don't fancy driving around on the road wearing my helmet before you ask!

 

I'm sure I'm not the first with this dilemma, but the search doesn't reveal any relevant discussions.

 

Thanks as always, and Merry Christmas!

[welshpug 1,666]

quite unlikely you'll bang your head TBH unless you are very tall, the harnesses will keep you in the seat.

 

though it does seem overkill for only 4 trackdays a year, plenty do all the tuning and retain full interiors and do a few trackdays.

[Anthony 1,003]

quite unlikely you'll bang your head TBH unless you are very tall, the harnesses will keep you in the seat.

It really depends on the seats - I'm an average 5' 10" and the cages in many 205's are exactly where I'd hit my head in a hard side impact, and I'm very uncomfortable driving those cars for that reason. On the other hand, on 205's that have had the exhaust tunnel properly cutting away to lower the seats, I sit so low that I look like a 12 year old struggling to see over the top of the dash, and there's no way I'm ever going to hit my head on the cage.

[Cameron 16]

So you may not bang your head but your flailing limbs will be broken on the roll cage if you don't fit padding, and that could stop you being able to make a swift exit should the worst happen and you have a crash followed by a fire.

 

I've been meaning to fit some for ages, just haven't got round to it.

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

As Anthony said, I'm about 5'9" and smacked my head (with helmet on) when I came off at the Nurburgring a couple of years ago. Even with the helmet and cage padding, it still bloody hurt. I've had my seat lowered now with mods to the exhaust tunnel and my eyes are a shade above the steering wheel, no chance of clonking my head now and its a much nicer driving position.

 

If its a road/track car, I'd be tempted to spend money elsewhere. I've been using my 205 as an everyday car for the past 6 months and with the cage it can be a bloody pain.

[JRL 14 1 Cars]

 

This has been posted up before but it reminds me why I fitted one to my daily driven 205.

[danpug 1]

Check out the other pugs and citroens crash tested hitting a flat wall on youtube too. I wouldn't want to be in a saxo or 106 and hit a pole like that!

 

Edited December 24, 2010 by danpug

[m_attt 31 1 Cars]

have you baught seats yet of not why dont you go for something like this, its what i have and no way of banging head then.

 

[Rob Thomson 6]

It's a simple risk assessment; are you more likely to have a serious accident on the road or on those 4 track-days...? The track days win by a mile, so fit a cage.

 

Besides which, I think you need to consider the relative risks of having a cage fitted to a road car too. Sure, there's a chance you could smack your head on it and spend the rest of your days dribbling, but there are many more likely scenarios in which a cage is a massive benefit to you in an accident. I've done road rallying for years; if you don't know this is - as the name implies - rallying on public roads, usually in the depths of Wales and Derbyshire on a Saturday night. This is perfectly legal proper motorsport sanctioned by the MSA. And while the emphasis is navigation and time-keeping, the crews who win are as committed as any on closed-road rallying. It's a properly fast motorsport. Anyway, to get to the point, the regulations allow cages but prohibit helmets. Almost everyone uses a cage, plenty of people have sizeable accidents, and yet there are very few injuries.

 

I remember once going over a fast crest, seeing some marks on the bank, then finding a 15" Speedline still attached to a trailing arm, a 205 rear light cluster, a headlamp, a bonnet, and loads of scuffs along the road. Probably 150yds down the road was a tangled mess that had once been a 205, properly smashed to bits. I don't think I've ever seen a rally car in such a sorry state. The crew were absolutely fine, not a mark on them, all thanks to a simple 6-point bolt-in cage.

 

My point is this; yes a cage can kill you, but there are many more ways in which one can save your life.

[dodsworth_gti 11]

id personally fit the cage,lower the seats on rails and use pleanty of padding and suitable seats and harnesess

 

that way,you should be safe on track and on the road,and you can get straps to hold your arms if your worrying about them,ive smacked my head on a cage in a 120mph spinoff with a helmet on and yes it hurts,but at the end of the day you have to expect it to happen,a bash to the head or dead?????? your choice mate

[Mart Pug 0]

All great points, thanks!

 

Yes, I'll be positioning the buckets quite low (but not to the point of modifying the tunnel as some people have), a bit lower than standard probably. At 5 foot 11 this should keep me away from the top bar (i'll have a 4 point harness in the car).

 

I'm swayed towards installing the cage (bought it a while back, so it was obviously my first instinct!), but fitting the most appropriate padding and positioning myself (and the passenger) in the car in a sensible place.

 

Totally agree that an accident is more likely to occur on track, on the balance of probabilities.

 

Mart

[tomcolinjones 26]

All great points, thanks!

 

Yes, I'll be positioning the buckets quite low (but not to the point of modifying the tunnel as some people have), a bit lower than standard probably. At 5 foot 11 this should keep me away from the top bar (i'll have a 4 point harness in the car).

 

I'm swayed towards installing the cage (bought it a while back, so it was obviously my first instinct!), but fitting the most appropriate padding and positioning myself (and the passenger) in the car in a sensible place.

 

Totally agree that an accident is more likely to occur on track, on the balance of probabilities.

 

Mart

 

When i used to work for a recovery firm, servicing there vehicles, i would see quite a few damaged cars coming back to the yard to be inspected by SOCO (sceene of crime officers)

the only 2 205's i have seen with roll cages in involved in an accident, and in both cases, the door bars had bent, and trapped the drivers leg against the seat. so mine are fitted lower, so if they do get bent 'god forbid' they will hit the side of the seat where the harness goes through. and i also aggree, that mounting the seats correctly, so your head doesnt rattle about the bars like a pinball machine is a good idea!

Edited December 25, 2010 by tomcolinjones

[Mart Pug 0]

Meant to ask - can anyone confirm the other happy side effect of fitting a cage: improved handling through extra rigidity?

[tomcolinjones 26]

Meant to ask - can anyone confirm the other happy side effect of fitting a cage: improved handling through extra rigidity?

theres the test i know of, when you open the window, and put your fingers between the top of the door and the roof, and swerve the car...you can feel the gap open and close. i have noticed a decreace in movement since fitting. so its not just superficial, in my case anyway.

[Mart Pug 0]

theres the test i know of, when you open the window, and put your fingers between the top of the door and the roof, and swerve the car...you can feel the gap open and close. i have noticed a decreace in movement since fitting. so its not just superficial, in my case anyway.

 

Wow! Not heard of that one.

[fast_eddie 0]

Weld in some 25mm box section as low as possible onto some plates welded to both the tunnel and the sill then make some ally angle up that fits 'under' the box section thus reducing the height of the seat mounts. I think it was some of 205TT 's mates at Harewood that I saw with that set up?

Seems to keep the seat well away from the cage?

[locosaki 0]

I've got a OMP cage in my 205, Bolted in at the rear and welded in at the front low down. I was actually thinking about pulling it out as I only do 3/4 track days a year too

 

I'm not too sure how effective the cage is but some might think it's better to have than not. I'm still undecided !!!

[Mart Pug 0]

Weld in some 25mm box section as low as possible onto some plates welded to both the tunnel and the sill then make some ally angle up that fits 'under' the box section thus reducing the height of the seat mounts. I think it was some of 205TT 's mates at Harewood that I saw with that set up?

Seems to keep the seat well away from the cage?

 

Yeah I was thinking along similar lines.

 

Wouldn't be me doing it, I'll ask Rob at Constella (Shepshed, Leics) to do that when he fits the cage in January.

[Baz 421]

I'd take a serious look at the condition of the std seat mounts before you consider using them, they're very weak and potentially pretty dangerous.

 

I don't know about legs being trapped between door bars, but I have seen and heard about injuries an deaths from failing standard seat mounts.

[tomcolinjones 26]

anyone got pics of their seat mountings? is it recomended to cut the tunnel?

[Baz 421]

You don't have to cut into the tunnel, it just depends how low you want to go, and the tunnel gets in the way a little.

 

 

 

[tomcolinjones 26]

 

is it wise having a single peice of box accross the inner sills, and the tunnel? (i am aware that it has been cut to accomodate the tunnel) a bump from the side would cause the whole lot to kink up? just my 2p

[Cameron 16]

There's a thread with tonnes of pics and ideas, would have been very easy to find with a search:

 

Lowering seat mounts.

 

As Baz says, the standard mounts are pretty weak. I fabricated some lower mounts for Garry a year or so ago and his standard mounts had actually cracked and were very dangerous!

[Baz 421]

is it wise having a single peice of box accross the inner sills, and the tunnel? (i am aware that it has been cut to accomodate the tunnel) a bump from the side would cause the whole lot to kink up? just my 2p

 

I doubt it, they're fitted with spreader plates at each end of the bar too.

 

Although those particular ones in the pic you quoted wouldn't be my ideal, alot more suitable and heavy duty yes, but they don't lower the seats.

[tomcolinjones 26]

I doubt it, they're fitted with spreader plates at each end of the bar too.

 

Although those particular ones in the pic you quoted wouldn't be my ideal, alot more suitable and heavy duty yes, but they don't lower the seats.

 

sory baz, after reading that back it seemed like i was having a go. i struggle to get my tone accross in writing!

 

thanks for posting the pics, and thanks cameron for the link.

 

proper mounts are desirable, and will be the next job after i get the mi16 out, and its in the welding bay ( barn with electric!)