Wilwood Calipers: Bad Rap?

[rodionski 3 1 Cars]

I was pondering to convert to Wilwood set up (4pot front Dynalite, 2pot back) for my track day - club rally car, but received negative feedback from about three people - they say Wilwood calipers tend to bend under pressure, pistons are prone to seize because they have no dust seals. Therefore I was suggested to convert to Brembo / Hi Spec / AP Racing set up rather than Wilwood.

 

Knowing that quite a few people use Wilwood on their Pugs in similar applications - I would kindly appreciate any feedback (both pro and con)

 

Many thanks to everyone in advance!

 

cheers

 

rodion.

[Rippthrough 98]

I've heard that a lot but tbh, when you consider that 80% of the stiffness of the caliper simply comes from the material and thickness of it, then you'll realise they either selected the wrong caliper for the pressure/loadings or didn't mount it square to the disc, so it twisted as pads load up under pressure.

It's even better when they recommend Hi-Spec which generally have either narrower or similar sized calipers...great for tight fitments but more flex than the Wilwoods in the narrower ones....

 

The other 20% is from the location and type of bolts, stress concentration and the material grain - given they're cross bolted with steel and drop forged, they ain't all bad.

You would probably be better off with the Midilites on the front though.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Rippthrough

[rodionski 3 1 Cars]

Many thanks! And another question - I was really hoping to have alloy bell rotors, but I'm having trouble sourcing alloy bells suitable for a 205/405 pug with the right bolt pattern and offset (as well as the right outer pattern for Wilwood discs)

 

I wonder whether anyone has had those made or sourced the right bells somewhere?

 

THanks again

[welshpug 1,646]

I know Hispec do custom bells and discs.

 

Ash on the 306gti6 forum sorted some brackets to use Renaultsport Brembo's and alloy belled discs (discs from Hispec I believe) to fit the 306, these will fit the 205 directly, but unfortunately due to the different offset of the hubs, and the different radius of the mounting tabs, they wont fit the 405/6 hubs.

[swordfish210 20]

I'd rather hang a coat out of the window and rely on that to stop me rather than a Willwood caliper, they're cheap nasty crappy calipers. About seven or eight years ago you could walk in to a Wal Mart in America and buy a Wilwood 4Pot caliper for $28 each How much do you think it costs them to make if they can sell them for that price.

 

I've seen them on a few race cars (my friends 306 was the most prominent example) where the pistons have seized and caused some strange pad wear and if you watch them when the brakes are being applied you can see them bending.

[Rippthrough 98]

I've seen them on a few race cars (my friends 306 was the most prominent example) where the pistons have seized and caused some strange pad wear and if you watch them when the brakes are being applied you can see them bending.

 

As would any caliper undersized for the application. Or not mounted square, given the elastic modulus of aluminium alloy is pretty much a constant...

[swordfish210 20]

As would any caliper undersized for the application.

 

Not really sure what you mean by that, would the Dynolite be better off on a bycicle then?

[Rippthrough 98]

The Dynalite range was designed to be as narrow as practical to only to fit on small wheeled/lightweight cars where the conventional dynapro or midilite calipers wouldn't physically go.

The Midilite's are almost twice as stiff on the sideplates as a Dynalite for example.

 

You'd find most similar sized calipers would exhibit similar flex.

Tbh, if you could visually see the caliper twisting when the brakes were applied I'd still say the caliper wasn't quite square, I've seen that many times.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Rippthrough

[swordfish210 20]

So why bother selling/buying something that is unfit for use? Seems a bit oxymoron to me

[Rippthrough 98]

Because it's not, it's perfect for anything with limited space

You'll find most caliper manufacturers offer narrow versions for where they're needed.

[swordfish210 20]

Because it's not, it's perfect for anything with limited space

 

Apart from the bending, the seizing pistons and the lack of dust seals....

[Rippthrough 98]

Apart from the bending, the seizing pistons and the lack of dust seals....

 

Because they were designed for lightweight race/desert cars

Like I said, they won't bend any more than a similar sized aftermarket aluminum caliper would.

So either the wrong sized caliper for the application, or it simply wasn't mounted square in one axis or the other - most of the difference between AP's and cheap calipers are the actual seal designs, which you can feel as slight inconsistancies through the pedal but not something you would see as a flexing caliper by eye.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Rippthrough

[swordfish210 20]

Can't speak for any other horror stories i've heard but the ones i've seen were all mounted correctly.

 

Edit: It's really hard to keep up when you keep editing your posts

Edited December 21, 2010 by swordfish210

[Rippthrough 98]

 

It only needs to be off a tiny amount to show up with a small caliper like that - the last set I sorted out (for the exact same problem actually) and checked had the centres of the bolts checked out square with the disc and inline, but checking the mounting surface itself showed a twist of just under 0.1mm from one mount to the other relative to the strut axis.

One filing session and a hardened shim later and bingo, no flexy caliper...

Edited December 21, 2010 by Rippthrough

[swordfish210 20]

Well you learn something new everyday. I can't help feel that we've wondered off topic though so back to the original question....Would you use Dynalites for a road rally car?

[Rippthrough 98]

I'd use Midilites, or the equivilent Hispec Billet 4's as a minimum

Dynalites were designed around ~600kg cars with a recommended maximum of about 750kg depending on the application, same as Ultralites, etc.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Rippthrough

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

You pay for what you get is all I will say, I would never use Wilwoods either and they use funny American threads

[kyepan 291]

a freind had them on the pulsar, the polymatrix pads supplied were ascorbic to say the least and wrecked discs, until he switched to mintex

 

another had them on his griffe 500, they twisted and he had to bin them.

[Rippthrough 98]

Whilst I wouldn't disagree that there's better out there (If you ever get the chance, take one of the AP Radi-Cal's apart and have a look at the detail that's gone into the seal housing, but don't ask the price unless your prepared for a second mortgage) if you have the budget, but I don't think there's anything that can compete on price/performance.

The inlet thread's not exactly a problem either it's UNF, it's as common as metric threads are, so it's not like it's difficult to source hoses or fittings, hell, even if you've only got a 10mm brake spanner that'll work...

 

 

Misapplication, rumour and conjecture is the reason for most of the bad press I'm afraid, the same goes for many, many motorsport/car products though.

The pads are pretty s*it though. Haven't been updated for yonks.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Rippthrough

[rodionski 3 1 Cars]

Ok thanks to everyone - this is extremely helpful.

I will then pursuit building on brembo (406 coupe front) and brembo (probably EvoIX back) calipers. I will try to source alloy bells from Compbrake to suit Wilwood rotors as I'd hate to have to use stock 406coupe rotors since they are too heavy.

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

Whilst I wouldn't disagree that there's better out there (If you ever get the chance, take one of the AP Radi-Cal's apart and have a look at the detail that's gone into the seal housing, but don't ask the price unless your prepared for a second mortgage) if you have the budget, but I don't think there's anything that can compete on price/performance.

The inlet thread's not exactly a problem either it's UNF, it's as common as metric threads are, so it's not like it's difficult to source hoses or fittings, hell, even if you've only got a 10mm brake spanner that'll work...

 

 

Misapplication, rumour and conjecture is the reason for most of the bad press I'm afraid, the same goes for many, many motorsport/car products though.

The pads are pretty s*it though. Haven't been updated for yonks.

 

I've heard the bad comments too, yet I run Dynalites (old type) on my 205 and never had a problem with them. Parts are readily available and they are easily stripped & rebuilt. I hardly think the threads are 'funny', not as if they're WW?

[Chris H 10]

Its been interesting reading this thread....does anyone have a comparison between dynalites and std 1.9 calipers and disks?

 

I've got 1.9 calipers and disks on one of my cars, using pagid rs15 pads and brembo o.e. disks and i find them very good for a std set up on a 105 bhp car.

 

However, i have a pair of wilwood dynalites, disks etc and was planning to fit these.

 

When i swaped another car of mine form 1.9 brakes to compbrake stuff i was impressed with the performance......dont get me wrong, i'm not expecting them to be anywhere as good as my PTS Alcons!

[Rippthrough 98]

If they're the forged dynalites I believe the CAD file is on the Wilwood site somewhere - it used to be on the old one anyway. If you ask Cameron nicely he might stick it into his Catia software if he's got time

[CaptainK 11]

I've got Wilwoods on my FTO. I was initially after something a bit better branded like Brembo, but when these Wilwoods came up cheap I snapped them up. Originally supplied with EBC Yellowstuff pads which I binned (I hate EBC products - long story) and replaced with Ferodo DS2500 pads. All I can say now is that the braking power and overall performance is amazingly better (originally using the standard 276mm FTO caliper with 3G discs and redstuff pads) and the performance difference between my old setup and new is as good as night and day. Can't remember the caliper specs of the Wilwoods, but its around 300mm (296mm?).

 

Not had the chance to trackday the FTO yet in this new setup, but just from road driving I know its miles better. Obviously I can't compare the Wilwoods to HiSpec / Brembo / AP etc as I've never driven a car fitted with them. However, I do know that the Wilwoods do give a good "performance per pound" value.