Couple Of Vts Gearbox Related Questions

[shalmaneser 26]

I've just taken delivery of my VTS engine and box - all very exciting and I'm just waiting for a few bits and bobs to just up from Miles and Stewart so I can start bolting the thing together.

 

However, and having done a lot of searching I still need some help with a couple of bits.

 

After having a good look at the clutch arrangement on the VTS and with plenty of help from Pete (2052006) I'm happy I can modify a standard 205 clutch cable to fit, so that's one job out of the way.

 

However I'm having trouble figuring out how to run the speedo drive sensor. I understand I need a 306 S16 sensor which apparently has the right connections, as the VTS one is clearly digital only as there is no space for a speedo cable, and apparently the ECU needs a speed signal for whatever reason? I also need a 405 speedo cable as the 205 one gets in the way of the manifold?

 

- Could anyone confirm the above, and part numbers would be magic!!!!

 

Finally I need to figure out the gearbox linkages, what parts do i need to pilfer from the 205 box and how do I assemble them?!?!!?

 

Cheers for any help you can give!!!

[welshpug 1,661]

You shouldn't need to modify the 205 cable at all, fit the push type clutch arm and shaft (standard 205 be3 type, found on many 306's and 405's) and a BX16v clutch kit and the 205 BE3 cable fits straight on.

 

The selector arm on the top of the box secured with a roll pin needs changing for the flat 205 arm.

 

The Speed sensor is indeed the type as used by the S16, you'll find them on TU3 engined 306's as well (of the similar age, probably several others too) they have the 3 pin plug connection, beware that some on ebay are 2 pin for the 406's and XM's.

 

Have heard the 405 cable fits and is longer, 205 one when clipped up to the bulkhead as intended is ok though.

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

as wp says, fit a be3 arm and release fork from the 205 box and just use it as a pull clutch not push

 

i chopped my selector arm off and welded the 205 flat one on as i had a be1 box that had no roll pin in the arm and as such wouldnt fit the vts box.

 

also had to 'adjust' the be1 cable to fit but none of this should be an issue if you have a be3 205 box to hand.

 

with regards to the speedo why not just use the be3 speedo drive too and the std 205 cable? i know its close to the fanimold but not that close?

 

basically very simple if you have a complete 205 box to hand to rob parts from

 

also you will need a mi clutch set instead of the vts one

Edited December 21, 2010 by pugpete1108

[Anthony 1,003]

No reason that you can't just retain the VTS clutch and use the VTS 'box clutch arm as-is though, as the OP was proposing.

[shalmaneser 26]

No reason that you can't just retain the VTS clutch and use the VTS 'box clutch arm as-is though, as the OP was proposing.

 

Yeah, I've seen it done (and driven it!) on Pete's 205, and thought it was a good solution - the box and engine are already mated with a good clutch so I may as well make the best use of them! It's only a few washers to make it work, I'll pop some photos up when I do it.

 

Good to hear about the speed sensor, will keep my eyes on the bay!

 

No one can spread any light on the linkage issue, then?

 

EDIT: Just looking on servicebox, apparently Pug want £113.99 before tax for the speedo sensor, which can be also got on Ebay (Linky McLink HERE) for 24.99.

 

Thanks Peugeot!!!!

Edited December 21, 2010 by shalmaneser

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

what linkage issue?

 

if you swap the vts selector arm (curved one) for the 205 one (straight one) then you can use the std 205 linkages

 

and why not use the 205 speedo drive (mechanical one) its free

[welshpug 1,661]

and why not use the 205 speedo drive (mechanical one) its free

 

 

because the gti6 ecu needs the VSS signal.

[shalmaneser 26]

because the gti6 ecu needs the VSS signal.

 

So I understand, but is this really the case? I can't see why the engine needs to know the speed at the wheels when it can get all it's information from the crank sensor...

 

I'm going to give it the benefit of the doubt anyway, £30 isn't too bad for the sensor!

 

Now I just need to find a decent second hand lambda...

 

if you swap the vts selector arm (curved one) for the 205 one (straight one) then you can use the std 205 linkages

 

Thanks for that, will look into it!

Edited December 21, 2010 by shalmaneser

[welshpug 1,661]

Crank sensor doesn't tell the ecu what the road speed is

 

You get very annoying flatspots and lower fuel economy without the VSS working in my experience.

 

Re-Lambda, I'd just use the one that came with the engine, or a new one from ECP who sell Bosch (same as o.e) for about £60, or any one from a 306 or 106 that has the right plug, as they are the same as long as the lead is the right length.

Edited December 21, 2010 by welshpug

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

It does work without the VSS but as WP has said you end up with a flat spot low down until it as such comes on Cam and then goes, Much better to drive with teh VSS and the speedo cable fits fine using this but I tend to clip it to the box just to make sure

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

because the gti6 ecu needs the VSS signal.

 

ah yeah i see now....doh.

 

going by how i did it. with a different ecu

 

i'll just shut up now

Edited December 21, 2010 by pugpete1108

[shalmaneser 26]

Crank sensor doesn't tell the ecu what the road speed is

 

Lol yeah I know the crank sensor doesn't tell the ECU what the speed is, I was just thinking about it in a purely theoretical sense, why does an engine need to know how fast it's going if it knows the revs, throttle opening, air flow, exhaust levels etc etc... Comes from being an engineer I guess, I need to dig out my old 'fundamentals of engine technology' and have a look-see!

 

Thanks for the tips though, at least I know what I'm looking for and why now!!!

 

Sadly the engine didn't come with the lambda, will need to get one off the 306gti6 forum I think.

[tomcolinjones 26]

old 'fundamentals of engine technology' and have a look-see!

 

Would that be a book by mr hillier at all?

[shalmaneser 26]

Would that be a book by mr hillier at all?

 

Lol yeah, with that knackered old rover on the front!

 

Thinking about it I guess that the engine might need to know when the car's rolling so that slow speed maneuvers are smoothed out by not cutting the fueling like the good old clockwork motronic does when you lift off...

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Lambda's are only £55.00 ish new, so worth bearing in mind, It's like the CPS's people ask a couple of quid less than new, going on they are expensive new theory.

[allye 530 3 Cars]

Well this topic has been super helpful for me!

 

Just to clarify, I can use a vts box with a vts clutch, change the slector arm and job's a goodun!?

[SurGie 54]

Not quite, VTS box with the BX/MI16 16v push clutch with the 205 BE3 gear selector arm and BE3 clutch arm and new bushes, well thats how im doing mine.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Thats the best way to do it, otherwise it means bodgeing things which is OK until someone else works on the car or something breaks when your out

[TOYBOY 1]

Not quite, VTS box with the BX/MI16 16v push clutch with the 205 BE3 gear selector arm and BE3 clutch arm and new bushes, well thats how im doing mine.

 

I think this is where most people start to get a bit confused when using the VTS gearbox. There are various different BE3 fork levers, searching on here it appears that you need one from an early BE3 gearbox.

There are also different BE3 clutch arms and bushes. Do you use yellow or white?

For information i have an 89(F) Reg with BE1 box. Obviously those members with standard BE3 boxes will find it a bit easier.

Using the guides on here can someone confirm or correct the following part numbers to be used with the VTS gearbox.

Hopefully this will try and clarify things a bit for first timers like myself..

 

As a given the BX 16v clutch is to be used.

 

BE3 fork lever...2115-24

Yellow bushes...2175-14 and 2175-22 or

White bushes...2175-21 and 2175-20

BE3 clutch arm(selection lever) 2525-35

 

Do you need to use the BE3 clutch cable and pedal?

 

BE3 clutch cable...2150-22

BE3 clutch pedal...2127-84

 

Does the pin that goes through the selector arm on VTS box fit BE3 arm?

 

There is more, feel free to add any relevant info.

 

Thanks Kev

[welshpug 1,661]

if you use a 205 box you dont need to change anything.

 

the bx16v clutch will work in a BE1 205 box with a BE1 205 release bearing (which is not the same as a BX16v BE1 bearing, this is the same as the BE3, which is why there's only one clutch kit for all 16v bx's)

[TOYBOY 1]

if you use a 205 box you dont need to change anything.

 

the bx16v clutch will work in a BE1 205 box with a BE1 205 release bearing (which is not the same as a BX16v BE1 bearing, this is the same as the BE3, which is why there's only one clutch kit for all 16v bx's)

 

Thanks for that, but i'm hoping for clarity on the use of the VTS box on the GTI6/VTS conversion. At the end i'll try and summarise all the information in one post so others don't have to trawl through hundreds of posts to find all the relevant info.

 

Kev

[tomcolinjones 26]

Thanks for that, but i'm hoping for clarity on the use of the VTS box on the GTI6/VTS conversion. At the end i'll try and summarise all the information in one post so others don't have to trawl through hundreds of posts to find all the relevant info.

 

Kev

we tend not to search, and just post because we know it p*sses people off....

[shalmaneser 26]

Thought i'd update this...fitted the speed sensor today, part number 616024.

 

Can be got from Ebay, I paid £24.99, much cheaper than Pug, none of my local factors were able to get one much cheaper.

 

It does fit but the gearbox casing needs a little material taken off it, as the plug fouls on the casing. a minute with a dremmel, no drama at all, and the piece you have to relieve is just an odd bit of casing that's not used, might be for attaching the gearbox to a different engine? No problems though.

 

Managed to skin my finger pretty well pulling the old sensor out though!

[24seven 104]

Right, I've decided to stick with my VTS box now. Before I go out and make a mess of things tomorrow, as well clutch arm etc and selector arm, I need to swap the crown wheel from my 309's differential onto that of the Xsara (or vice versa?) and use an Mi16 clutch/thrust bearing with the standard 309 clutch cable... Is that it?

[petert 588]

I need to swap the crown wheel from my 309's differential onto that of the Xsara (or vice versa?)

 

You'll definitely make a mess of it if you do that! The cwp is matched to the pinion, so it's a complete strip down to change it. So just change the selector arm (without dropping the shaft) and add a new throw out bearing.