Coil Packs, Mi Dizzy Or Bike Coil Sticks

[locosaki 0]

I'm going to be giving a mate a hand moving over to a throttle body set up and on the ignition side of things there seems to be quite a few options. The management is fully mappable.

 

Can someone please advise me on what set up is prefered.

 

I know the set up he is using is going to be the original MI dizzy cap with a coil and ignition amp. What like is this set up ?

 

EDIS coil pack and related parts is another option. How doe's this compare to the above ? Is it a better set up ?

 

Now when I built my last kitcar I removed the original coil and fitted bike coil sticks from a Kawasaki ZX6. Could this be done with the MI ? If so has anyone tried this ?

 

When I wired the coilsticks I had them so 1&3 fired at the same time and 2&4 at the same time, Is this known as wasted spark ?

[boldy205 75]

I think you will find the management will either come with a coil pack, or will state to use any of a wide selection of wasted spark packs available. What management is he planning on using? Pretty sure all wasted spark packs have three inputs, a switched live (from the ignition) an earth and a pulse.

As you say about your kit car setup, this is known as a wasted spark system yes.

Hope this helps

Matt

[locosaki 0]

When I last spoke to him he said the management (I cannot remember which make) was cappable of running any ignition set up but the stuff he is getting supplied with is a coil and a ignition amp and this utilizes the oirginal MI rotor arm and cap.

 

I'm just curious as I'm going to move over to management myself hence the reason I would like to know what set up is prefered.

[Anthony 1,003]

Personally, I'd move away from the standard dizzy cap and arm without question so long as the management has atleast two ignition outputs (which is pretty much anything), given that Mi dizzys are expensive and not especially long-lasting.

 

CoP is in theory better, but I've never had any issue just using a standard wasted-spark coilpack as used on most mid-late 90's 8v XU and TU engines - cheap, very simple to fit and wire, easy to find a replacement if you have one fail, and proven.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

The best options are:

 

1) Coil over plug (COP) - like a 2.0 Mi16 or GTI6 (which you can run sequential* or wasted spark**)

 

2) A typical coil pack - like on most petrol 106/206/306/406 & related Citroens. This can only be used as wasted spark if you use one unit.

 

3) Combined ignitors and coils (like COP) like I use, and as recommended by PeterT, many VAG tuning gurus and even MegaSquirt such as the GM (General Motors) LS1, LS2 and LS Truck coils used on their V8 engines. Like COP, these can be run sequentially and as wasted spark. These make HUGE sparks, with lots of current.

 

* - Not much advantage I hear, and needs a cam (second) timing sensor. GTI6, XU7JP4 (1.8 16v), EW10-12 and 2.0 Mi (S16) have this.

 

** - Wasted spark is most likely the most supported route with aftermarket ECUs. Some allow sequential, but as said above I'm not really sure there's much point/advantage. MSIII, Emerald, DTA, Omex at the very least support wasted spartk straight out of the box.

 

PLUS: Based on my time spent with Sandy - and his valuable experience - keeping it simple, i.e. tuning with moderation is highly recommended. Using a simple, readily available coil pack as per option (2) above, means if something goes wrong on the rollers when you're mapping or even on the road, you can replace the coil pack cheaply and quickly, and practically anywhere. If you have flashy (and powerful) LSX coils like I have, they cost more, a more difficult to mount, and one or more goes wrong, they are more difficult/costly to replace.

 

I would say go option 2, and keep it simple.

[locosaki 0]

So if your car was running after market management with bodies but was utilising the original dizzy cap/rotor would you be looking to swap this to a coil pack/wasted spark at some stage or would you quite happily leave the original dzzy cap on if there was nothing wrong with it ?

 

I've got a spare Kawasaki zx6r coil stick in the garage, I might try and see what like this fits into a MI head, A set of 4 can be had for £40 so not really to bad if it works/fits good

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I don't think you've really read my answer or some of the other comments.

 

If I was/we were running bodies and aftermarket management, the dizzy would be slung away pretty quickly. Why on earth use old technology when the ECU can manage something far more sophisticated, manageable and reliable?

 

As has been advised, you really should try and keep it simple. Fair play for trying, but just use a simple wasted spark coil pack. It'll only cost £10.

[locosaki 0]

I did fully understand what was being said but I don't think your getting my point !

 

I'm going to be helping a mate fit 2nd hand bodies/management and with this kit comes an original dizzy cap to distrubute the spark with a coil and ignition amp !!

 

Now before we start to fit this should we be ditching it and look to fit the coil pack or go with the stuff that has been purchased ?

 

Don't want to get it all fitted and then have start pulling things back out.

[Tom Fenton 1,547]

I think Mr Sarty is a hypocrite, as he obviously did not read your answer either.

 

In answer, whilst you are at it yes it makes sense to ditch the single coil and distributor arrangement and go to a static (no moving parts) wasted spark coilpack. Less moving parts is almost always a good thing when it comes to ignition systems.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I think Mr Sarty is a hypocrite.

 

No I'm not at all Tom.

 

He says there is a chance to fit the dizzy etc (old system) or upgrade, as he has aftermarket management. The advice given confirms what he asked in the first place, i.e. is it better to upgrade the old dizzy system to some form of coil packs; so we agreed with him.

 

Detailed advice from me and others said lose the dizzy and run (a) coil pack(s). He then asked again should he ditch the dizzy. That was my point; we'd already said yes to him.

 

I went a stage further - to help him and others in the future - to summarise the ignition options and make a recommendation based on experience and also Sandy's advice.

[Tom Fenton 1,547]

You did not answer his question in your initial reply, read it again. There is no mention of whether or not he is better off keeping the Mi dizzy arrangement or not. You probably do more to confuse the guy (who from his posts is probably new to the subject as a whole) by talking about different coil styles, which was not what he was asking. Anthony further up the thread does answer his question.

 

Then as he reiterates his original point, you get on your high horse about him not reading your reply. Quite frankly your bullying and patronising attitude towards other people trying to do their best to learn is getting more and more tiresome, if you do not feel able to answer someone without accepting beforehand that perhaps they can not understand, or will not understand, or not agree with your advice, then perhaps it is better not to answer in the first place.

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

Simple answer.

 

Bin the distributor cap and ignition amp for a wasted spark set up, less moving parts and things to go wrong, ie. failing dizzy cap, rotor arm, crappy ingniton amp - looks neater too!

 

 

I'm using a cheap coilpack from a 106 plus an emerald ECU etc etc

Edited December 3, 2010 by Simes

[PVFCpug 6]

Vauxhall coilpack and leads for me with Omex ECU. Obviously though you would need to have a Crank Sensor to trigger the ECU.

 

[locosaki 0]

Thanks for all the replies guys.

 

When I do my own I will use a coil pack for sure.

 

I've done a bit of research and a 106 coil pack with Corsa leads seems a popular choice.

 

So I assume all I need is a coil pack and leads, Connect coil pack directly to the ecu and job done ?

 

Is that correct ?

[Anthony 1,003]

Basically yes, certainly with most aftermarket ECU's like Emerald, Omex, and DTA.

 

I know that some Luminition ECU's use external coil drivers, so you'll need a second one of them if you don't have one. Some earlier Megasquirts don't have a second coil driver onboard either, but one can be added.

 

Obviously you'll need to change the settings on the ECU itself to fire on both ignition outputs in a wasted-spark setup.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I'd say avoid Corsa leads, the std Pug ones from the 405 are fine as you can take them off with ease unlike the plastic Corsa ones, or the ones I;ve seen are like this

[locosaki 0]

I thought I would ash here instead of staring another thread !

 

I just bought a Lumenition C460 of ebay for £40, Theres no loom with this but I should manage to put something together.

 

Anyway I've been searching through google to see what I could find out about this but I still cannot figure out if this requires a seperate coil driver to run wasted spark ?

 

Anyone on here know much about them ?

 

I'm led to believe these are quite old technology but in saying that demon tweeks are still selling them new ?

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I sold my old Lumenition ECU years ago as they all needed external driver's, 2 for coil packs and 1 for a normal coil, software and mapping again can be iffy if someones added a password lockout in it

[locosaki 0]

Ah right so if someone has enabled a password lock then the ecu is basically of no use.

 

If you sold your lumenition one years ago I assume that means they are not all that good then ?

[Sandy 191]

Not sure what the problem is with Corsa leads? The 96 1.6 16v ones fit really well and just about all of my 16v engines are running happily on them.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

I think you can get around the password but you have to start all over again, It's been a good 10 years since I looked at the system I'm afraid but give them a call as they are still based in London

 

The leads are a personal thing, I just don't like them I'm afraid and try and keep everything from Pug for ease of fitment and on that odd Sunday morning