Getting Annoyed With Myself

[Bigtimmy 1]

I now know how women must feel on a Saturday night about 3 hours before going out....do I wear trousers or a skirt and they end up going out in some hideous trouserskirt combo.

 

Anyhow I digress.

 

I am getting pi**ed off with myself as I've done a season of track days so far with the car and have had what can only be described as an immense time learning how to drive properly and quickly.

 

With probably only another 2 days left (27th Sept and 15th Oct) I'm planning some winter work on the car which will involve an engine conversion. I've pretty much dialled the braking and handling of the car and am really happy with my setup on this front but I need more power.

 

I am getting annoyed with myself because I can't make my mind up what I want to put in the car.

 

I have all but ruled out an MI16 as there aren't that many left and there is a risk of oil surge issues round the track.

 

So that leaves me with a few options.

 

1. GTI-6 - seems easy enough

2. Re prod the 8v into some sort of monster - seems expensive for little gains

3. Throw a turbo lump in there - seems like fun!

4. Something else.

 

The GTI-6 route seems to be the favoured option as it doesn't involve a whole heap of extra pipework and intercooling etc etc, but I am SO impressed with my 8v that I am still considering prodding that to try and see 170bhp out of it.

 

I'm just so confused and annoyed that I can't make my mind up.

 

Can you wonderfully helpful people throw some ideas my way as to which way I should go. I'm not averse to ripping a ?????? lump to bits to rebuild it to make sure it is right first time.

 

I'm not going to use it on the road particularly so it is mainly a track toy.

 

All suggestions welcome.

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

6 conversion is easy enough, heavy engine though and I would recommend a Xsara VTS gearbox. This is what I have in mine and it's an awesome gearbox, way better than the 1.6 box I had on before!

 

Totally up to you mate though, if your looking for extra power from your 8v you'll be spending alot of money like you say.

 

2.0L 8v Turbo's are also in the same boat I believe, loads of money again to improve on things.

[Cameron 16]

Mi16 can be made to not surge with the right modifications, I run my Mi on semi-slicks and haven't had a hint of surge so far. It's worth looking in to if you prefer a little extra work over a heavier engine. As you've said though, the Mi is getting pretty thin on the ground now so unless you really don't want the extra weight or can source a bottom end easily you'd be better off with a GTi6.

 

Modifying the 8V would be cool as you can tell people it has the standard engine, but you'd have to spend a lot of money to get the performance of a lightly modified 16V.

 

Personally I wouldn't go turbo on track with a FWD car, N/A is much more controllable and tractable.

 

For "something else" Have you thought about doing an XU7 / RS hybrid using the XU7 bottom end and GTi6 head? That way you get a very nicely surge protected alloy bottom end (baffled sump, windage tray etc) and the much better flowing RS head. Again it's even more effort, but it's probably the best engine combination and should rev very nicely with the shorter stroke and long rods.

[Cameron 16]

6 conversion is easy enough, heavy engine though and I would recommend a Xsara VTS gearbox. This is what I have in mine and it's an awesome gearbox, way better than the 1.6 box I had on before!

 

Wait 'til you try the 6 speed on track! Oli was pretty jealous of my gear ratios when I took him out for some passenger laps at Oulton Park, you're right in the power on every gearchange instead of bogging down off cam. If you're only really using the car on track then who cares about the reduced steering lock, unless you're on kart tracks no corner will ever be that tight.

[shalmaneser 26]

I know exactly what you mean, the 8V is a great engine, and the throttle response is awesome compaired to the gti6 - I've always wondered why that is...

 

You're looking at a solid £1000 I reckon all in to do a full gti-6 engine swap, assuming of course that you can't break a VTS - in that case you can probably do it for £500 - £0 depending on how much cash you'll make back from the VTS parts.

 

That would make a pretty perky 8V but it's still a lot of money for probably less than standard gti6 power. But 8Vs are cool nowadays.

 

Difficult.

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

Honda K20a engine

[welshpug 1,657]

B16B

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

^ Wrong way round ain't it?

 

Cam's idea is a feasible option, lightweight and reliable (as you make it)

[welshpug 1,657]

doesnt matter which way round it is, anything can be made to fit

 

seen one in a 106 Rallye stage rally car.

 

myself I'd be tempted to either build a nice 8valve, or something special based on later XU heads, say a 1580 16v, a 1905 like cameron has built, or a 2.2 EW....

[boombang 2]

Got to admit that the 8 valve I'm taking out of my 205 leaves a smile on my face every time.

 

150lb/ft torque and a throttle response to die for (on carbs).

 

I am going for a VTS engine to make it more liveable everyday, and have a VTS here with no further use. The throttle and engine response are ok compared to very modern stuff, but not a patch on the 8 valve.

 

 

Sitting here going through all the bits I need for the VTS conversion though, can say the costs are adding up a touch - then got of course to consider the time it'll take to do!

 

My carb setup will be for sale, along with the balanced engine etc. If you want any more info then drop me a pm as looks like I'll be splitting it all down.

[Lan 24 1 Cars]

original engine, just rebuilt maybe a lumpier cam and a reworked head then make sure everything works properly afm, tps, sad, cleaned injectors, vac advance, 1.6 box a possibility?

 

I know there are many successful engine conversions, but there are also many that end up costing alot more than planned and still not working properly, at the end of they day originality is what will be more sort after eventually, but its up to you

[Bigtimmy 1]

Okey cokey,

 

First off thanks heaps for the replies.

 

I've managed to narrow it down a bit further.

 

MI is definately out, I just don't think I'd be happy even though Cam and others have solved the surge problem, it would always be there in the back of my mind as I hacked into Rocket corner at Ty Croes at 110mph!!

 

Turbo is out, for Cams reasons of tractability and control. I think I'd perhaps go down the turbo route if I was building a road car, some of you guys have done this to good effect.

 

So I'm left with the GTI-6 option, the 8v option or as Cam suggests a hybrid engine.

 

Whilst the replies have been coming in I have been doing a bit of research on the various options.

 

Ideally I'd like to run twin 45's, I know this was easy to do on the 8v and the MI engine, but can it be done on the 6 engine or a hybrid engine. I'm guessing so.

 

In that case would I get rid of my ecu and the injection loom, or would I need to run some sort of stand alone management to make it all work properly due to the extra sensors on the 6 / hybrid engine?

 

Reading a thread from 2007, Sandy has built one or two hybrids, one of which seems to put out some stonking power (234bhp iirc) which sounds awesome.

 

Sorry to harp on, but does anyone know what sort of "out of the box" power I'd get from an XU7 / RS hybrid, would it be GTI-6 ish at 170bhp or would it be lower due to the smaller capacity?

 

Ah the joys of a winter project!!

[welshpug 1,657]

it wont be much lower from a gti6 or xsi headed 1.9 than the gti6, have a look at camerons build thread.

 

 

I think one thing that would make or break any project is a decently mapped ecu, you can have whatever engine you like, but having a craply running thirsty lump that's a bitch to drive on carbs spoils it, an ecu mapped well gets rid of all that.

[Anthony 1,003]

GTi-6 on carbs seems like a backwards step to me over standard GTi-6 inlet and management, especially if that's using an 8v dizzy for ignition as most people do

[Bigtimmy 1]

GTi-6 on carbs seems like a backwards step to me over standard GTi-6 inlet and management, especially if that's using an 8v dizzy for ignition as most people do

 

I wondered if this might be the case, and I guess you are saying this because there is a limit to what you can do with a set of carbs, whereas if I was to use some standalone management there are more parameters that can be controlled in the system and they can be controlled more accurately provided the mapping is up to scratch.

 

or

 

Could I change the 8v dizzy for something else, run carbs and see similar (although not as precise) control with carbs?

[Cameron 16]

Yeah I have to be honest even though I haven't had any surge so far, it doesn't stop me from having a nervous peek at the needle every now and then!

 

I'm pretty settled on an XU7 / RS hybrid as my next engine, I like the idea of a slightly smaller capacity buzzy little engine and apparently they rev really nicely. IMO low down grunt doesn't suit a light little car like the 205, you want to be able to rev the tits off it!

 

You'd need aftermarket management on a hybrid engine whichever combo you go for, and the power you get from it is very much down to the mapper as WP said. I got 172bhp from my XU9 / RS on Emerald's rollers with all standard internals, and I doubt you'd be too far off that with 100cc less capacity, maybe something like 165bhp.

 

Yes as Anthony said I wouldn't ditch the GTi6 management for carbs, the 6's inlet and management are really pretty good. If you're going to ditch them, make sure you do it for throttle bodies and management.

[Bigtimmy 1]

Cameron, thanks for the input.

 

Please let me know if you follow my logic below.

 

So if I were to hybrid it I would end up with somewhere around the 165 - 170bhp mark which if I tuned it by changing the cams and a remap I might see maybe 190bhp.

 

Things I would need to purchase to do this - XU7 bottom end, GTI-6 top end, fanimolds etc, etc, stand alone management, mapping, etc etc. This isn't an exhaustive list obviously.

 

Or if I were to stick with my already revvy 8v, skim the head to raise the compression, stick a lairy cam in, have the head worked, and add a set of twin 45's and a re curved dizzy. I could see something like a similar power figure to the base hybrid engine build.

 

Things I need to purchase to do this - Inlet fanimold for the twin 45's, lairy cam, re curved dizzy, and as I see it not a lot more apart from the head skim.

 

Now as I see it I could probably spend £2k on the hybrid build and end up with something that did the job and more, or I could keep it oldskool and prod the 8v which I know is good, (it's only turned 1000 miles since a full rebuild), and end up with a screaming banshee of an engine that wasn't as powerful as the hybrid but was ultimately simpler, (electronically speaking), sounded fu**ing awesome, and made me smile like a cheshire cat every track day for the next 2 years for around £1.5k. And with the change take the Mrs away for a weekend somewhere for not whinging about the amount of cash I spend on the car

 

It seems win win to me, but please feel free to pick holes in my logic!!

[Bigtimmy 1]

Oh. and just so you know I'm much less annoyed with myself now!!

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

Have a butchers at this

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...=109748&hl=

 

Might be worth looking through craigs other topics aswell, al

[Cameron 16]

Wow, that's a pretty nice result!

 

It's up to you really, the hybrid is more work and more money but it could be very worth it. On the other hand the idea of keeping it standard and just tuning what you have is also pretty good, especially if you can make decent power from it. The only problem with 8V is you can tune them to the power of a 16V for about the same money as converting to 16V, but then you find you're up against the law of diminishing returns from that point whereas the 16V will have plenty of tuning potential. It's really down to whether you want to keep it original and be able to say you have a 8V that can keep up with the 16V boys, or whether you want the potential to tune further.

 

The hybrid engine could quite easily cost £2K, as you really want to get both engines so you already have any obscure parts you may need to hand. You can pick up a RS engine with a knackered bottom end for not much money - I managed to get one for £200 - the XU7 should cost you between £300 and £400. Then you need any rebuild parts - head gasket, bearings, clutch etc etc - around £400-500, and finally management and mapping at around £1000.

 

You could get your 8V on throttle bodies, management and cams for around that price, and that would be very nice!

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

Wow, that's a pretty nice result!

 

It's up to you really, the hybrid is more work and more money but it could be very worth it. On the other hand the idea of keeping it standard and just tuning what you have is also pretty good, especially if you can make decent power from it. The only problem with 8V is you can tune them to the power of a 16V for about the same money as converting to 16V, but then you find you're up against the law of diminishing returns from that point whereas the 16V will have plenty of tuning potential. It's really down to whether you want to keep it original and be able to say you have a 8V that can keep up with the 16V boys, or whether you want the potential to tune further.

 

The hybrid engine could quite easily cost £2K, as you really want to get both engines so you already have any obscure parts you may need to hand. You can pick up a RS engine with a knackered bottom end for not much money - I managed to get one for £200 - the XU7 should cost you between £300 and £400. Then you need any rebuild parts - head gasket, bearings, clutch etc etc - around £400-500, and finally management and mapping at around £1000.

 

You could get your 8V on throttle bodies, management and cams for around that price, and that would be very nice!

 

Xu7s can be picked up for peanuts, under £100 is possible for a runner. Aftermarket ecus can also be had cheaply if your prepared to wait for a second hand one. My dta with a professionally built loom was £350 and my brothers was even less than that. Mapping, again surely half a day on the rollers would cost you around £250.

A little time and effort sourcing parts could see it done cheaply and properly.

[damien 22 1 Cars]

i would stick with the 8v lump and lightly tune it, but thats just me and after having bad expernce with a 16v convertion

[Cameron 16]

Yeah you can get everything cheaper, but I was just trying to give a worst case scenario so he doesn't get half way through and run out of cash!

 

Emerald charge about £350 for a full map now, and TOTD aren't far off that either.

[JRL 14 1 Cars]

Im in favour of a rebuilt 1.9 8v, baffled sump and a 1.6 be3 gearbox.

[bluesleeper 3]

I know its a little off topic but how have people overcome the surge problems with the mi16 engine as i have tryed searching and not found anything?