Starting Problems........click Click Click Help

[christopher 5 1 Cars]

My mums 1.9 GTI has problems starting problems and this has been going on for years now. I could do with some useful suggestions:-)

 

Basically it won't start when the battery drops to 12.2 volts and when the battery is externally charged and when installed in the car it drops to 12.6 volts.

 

So when the car is not used for a few days it doesn't take long for the voltage to drop and the car doesn't start. Turning the key you just get click...click..

 

SO my dad takes it out and charges it all the time. Not sure how healthy that is actually..

 

With a battery charge or jump start it starts first time..

 

So far we have..

 

Replaced the fuel pump relay

Removed the Peugeot Alarm

Replaced the alternator to a higher spec one (from a 405)

Replaced the starter motor (to the large type)

Replaced the battery to a high spec one.

Cleaned the multi plug under the air flow sensor

 

I'm kinda at a loss what to do now. Suggestions very welcome...

Edited August 22, 2010 by christopher

[peakrevs 0]

My mums 1.9 GTI has problems starting problems and this has been going on for years now. I could do with some useful suggestions:-)

 

Basically it won't start when the battery drops to 12.2 volts and when the battery is externally charged and when installed in the car it drops to 12.6 volts.

 

So when the car is not used for a few days it doesn't take long for the voltage to drop and the car doesn't start. Turning the key you just get click...click..

 

SO my dad takes it out and charges it all the time. Not sure how healthy that is actually..

 

With a battery charge or jump start it starts first time..

 

So far we have..

 

Replaced the fuel pump relay

Removed the Peugeot Alarm

Replaced the alternator to a higher spec one (from a 405)

Replaced the starter motor (to the large type)

Replaced the battery to a high spec one.

Cleaned the multi plug under the air flow sensor

 

I'm kinda at a loss what to do now. Suggestions very welcome...

 

I know you say you have replaced the alternator but I have had experience of the battery draining back throught the alternator windings so to check that you could disconnect the alternator and do a battery voltage check after a day or so.

[welshpug 1,666]

try a smaller bodied late type starter motor, remanufactured early large bodies starters can be hit and miss, more often miss.

 

I guess I was lucky with my Hella Remanufactured unit on my 205 though!

[peakrevs 0]

I forgot to add these voltages for a battery in its various states of charge;

 

12.68v . . . . . . . . . . 100%

12.45v . . . . . . . . . . 75%

12.24v . . . . . . . . . . 50%

12.06v . . . . . . . . . . 25%

11.89v . . . . . . . . . . 0%

 

So when the voltage drops below 12.4 it needs charging. At 1.2 Volts the battery is very low which indicates that even when the ignition is off something is drawing a fair old load from the battery.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

What happens, if when the car's doing the click click thing, you swap out to another battery or even just connect another battery via jump leads?

 

If it starts then, to me it must be the battery either {a} not holding a charge or {B} it not getting charged or {c} both.

 

This simple test rules out anything else, as if it spins over fine with a different battery or on jump leads, then the starter and wiring is all fine.

 

First swap for me would be the battery, as it's the easiest, then the alternator.

 

If it still behaves as you've explained with a different battery or jump leads to another car, then we know the problem's elsewhere such as starter/solenoid and/or wiring, including earth strap(s).

Edited August 22, 2010 by DrSarty

[peakrevs 0]

What happens, if when the car's doing the click click thing, you swap out to another battery or even just connect another battery via jump leads?

 

If it starts then, to me it must be the battery either {a} not holding a charge or {B} it not getting charged or {c} both.

 

This simple test rules out anything else, as if it spins over fine with a different battery or on jump leads, then the starter and wiring is all fine.

 

First swap for me would be the battery, as it's the easiest, then the alternator.

 

If it still behaves as you've explained with a different battery or jump leads to another car, then we know the problem's elsewhere such as starter/solenoid and/or wiring, including earth strap(s).

 

He says that it will start with a freshly charged battery or with jump leads so, does this not indicate that all is well with the starter and ignition. If he disconnects the fully charged battery for a few days and then checks the voltage this will tell him if the battery is faulty or if there is an external drain on it when connected. The figures above in my previous post show that the battery has lost 50% of its charge when standing so in my view, this must be the root of the problem. I wouldn't expect a battery with less than 50% charge to start the engine.

[jackherer 543]

He says that it will start with a freshly charged battery or with jump leads so, does this not indicate that all is well with the starter and ignition.

 

Not necessarily, if the starter wiring or an earth is borderline a small voltage drop across corroded connectors or whatever might only cause problems if the battery is on the low side but work fine when its fully charged.

 

Measure the battery voltage while turning the key, if it stays at 12.1 or whatever the starter wiring needs looking at, if it drops significantly the battery is faulty or not being charged properly.

[EricYellow 1]

If it has a radio fitted, take it out and see what happens.

I've fixed quite a few cars with the same problem, leave the car for a few days and the batteryvoltage drops so much the car won't start anymore.

Maybe the boot ligth stays on ? Checked that ?

You could also take the + of the battery, put an amp/multi meter (with a 15A minimum fuse! ) in between the + cable and the battery and see how much amps it's drawing when the iginiton is turned off.

If it's still drawing power then you can take the car's fuses out 1 by 1 and see if the power drawing stops.

If it stops, you've got the right circuit and finding the problem should be a lot easier.

[GLPoomobile 958]

I forgot to add these voltages for a battery in its various states of charge;

 

12.68v . . . . . . . . . . 100%

12.45v . . . . . . . . . . 75%

12.24v . . . . . . . . . . 50%

12.06v . . . . . . . . . . 25%

11.89v . . . . . . . . . . 0%

 

 

I wouldn't expect a battery with less than 50% charge to start the engine.

 

Mine started recently when it was down to nearly 12v. Didn't seem to struggle either.

[christopher 5 1 Cars]

I know you say you have replaced the alternator but I have had experience of the battery draining back throught the alternator windings so to check that you could disconnect the alternator and do a battery voltage check after a day or so.

 

 

try a smaller bodied late type starter motor, remanufactured early large bodies starters can be hit and miss, more often miss.

 

I guess I was lucky with my Hella Remanufactured unit on my 205 though!

 

I think the original one was a small one. I wonder if these actually take less power to turn? The Starter on there now is a reconditioned Bosch one..

 

 

I forgot to add these voltages for a battery in its various states of charge;

 

12.68v . . . . . . . . . . 100%

12.45v . . . . . . . . . . 75%

12.24v . . . . . . . . . . 50%

12.06v . . . . . . . . . . 25%

11.89v . . . . . . . . . . 0%

 

So when the voltage drops below 12.4 it needs charging. At 1.2 Volts the battery is very low which indicates that even when the ignition is off something is drawing a fair old load from the battery.

Thats mad 0.4 % drop is 50 % lost? That sounds a lot

 

 

What happens, if when the car's doing the click click thing, you swap out to another battery or even just connect another battery via jump leads?

 

If it starts then, to me it must be the battery either {a} not holding a charge or {B} it not getting charged or {c} both.

 

This simple test rules out anything else, as if it spins over fine with a different battery or on jump leads, then the starter and wiring is all fine.

 

First swap for me would be the battery, as it's the easiest, then the alternator.

 

If it still behaves as you've explained with a different battery or jump leads to another car, then we know the problem's elsewhere such as starter/solenoid and/or wiring, including earth strap(s).

 

The battery has been changed about 3 times already. And the alternator is a new high spec one. The battery shows over 14v when the engine is running. The car starts fine just after it has been charged externally or with jump leads

 

 

If it has a radio fitted, take it out and see what happens.

I've fixed quite a few cars with the same problem, leave the car for a few days and the batteryvoltage drops so much the car won't start anymore.

Maybe the boot ligth stays on ? Checked that ?

You could also take the + of the battery, put an amp/multi meter (with a 15A minimum fuse! ) in between the + cable and the battery and see how much amps it's drawing when the iginiton is turned off.

If it's still drawing power then you can take the car's fuses out 1 by 1 and see if the power drawing stops.

If it stops, you've got the right circuit and finding the problem should be a lot easier.

 

I haven't checked the boot light I'll ask my dad to check that. The radio is still the original Clarion one. So I don't expect it to drain much. There is still an old immobiliser fitted but all the connections are soldered tight. the voltage before and after are also the same.

 

 

Mine started recently when it was down to nearly 12v. Didn't seem to struggle either.

 

 

I forgot to say its a 1.9 GTI.

[Rob_the_Sparky 10]

I suspect you have two problems:

 

1) Something is draining your battery

 

2) You have a marginal issue with your starter (pretty much the norm with a 205)

 

To fix 2 there are a number of ideas as no one has yet nailed the cause (and that may well be becasue there are multiple causes). The problem is the starter solenoid not getting enough power to engage. The quickest way to fix this is to run a wire from under the steering column (after the imobiliser) direct to the starter solenoid. Ideally a piggy back conector is used on the solenoid so the original wire is also left attached but it not necessary. This bypasses all the causes of the problem that I'm aware of.

 

The quick way to know whether this is going to work is to wait until the car will not start then pull off the starter solenoid connector. Make up a length of wire with a suitable crimp on one end. Connect this to the solenoid and the other end to battery positive at the other. If the engine cranks then you have enough power in the battery, its just not getting to the starter. Above fix is what you need.

 

Rob

[peakrevs 0]

Thats mad 0.4 % drop is 50 % lost? That sounds a lot

 

This should explain and confirm:

 

http://www.topbuzz.co.uk/info/car_battery/car_battery.pdf

[mr_exe 1]

I finished up using a relay to get round the fact that the ignition switch was worn, causing a voltage drop at the starter, all it would do is click, as was not enough power to throw the solenoid.