What Engine? Sr20, 4g63, 20v Turbo?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I'm sorry, but I think this quest for stupid, pointless power (and at a budget) is... pointless.

 

It'll be practically unusable; s*it off boost; everything else will need upgrading and it will cease being a 205.

 

I also don't see the point of changing the S16 block for an 8v one to get lower CR. How does that work?

 

It's your money pal, but I'm sure you can do something more impressive with it and a 205 and your pile of parts than create high figures for pub car park talk.

 

[Daviewonder 533 3 Cars]

Think of the "scene" points though!

[wracing 19]

Don't go to the 8v bottom end its quite frankly s*it.

 

With proper setup FWD power can be used. Say for instance if I get in my twin turbo FWD and stamp on the power I smoke the rubber and f*** shafts and clutch at the same time.

 

If I get in my RWD BMW 328i with a blower stamp on the power I smoke the rubber and end up pointing the other direction!

 

With sensible modulation of throttle, and proper driving you can get the power down!

 

Now tell me why are large powered FWD pointless, because they leave yours standing.....or another reason??

 

That aside massive power 4X4 is the only way forward!!

 

James

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Now tell me why are large powered FWD pointless, because they leave yours standing.....or another reason??

 

Not the first reason for sure. You've almost answered it yourself.

 

But what I'm really getting at is someone saying 'I need/want 300bhp', and then 'later, when I want more power which I certainly will' or '(insert name) has 400bhp so I'm going for 450bhp' is totally pub numbers talk. You've admitted you can't really use it.

 

If it were a race car where another team is getting 10bhp more out of a similar engine at the pinnacle of competition and huge money rests on who wins then yes, I can understand it.

 

Clever: yes. Entertaining: yes. Point - no. It's the need to have more I just cannot and will not ever get.

 

I won't say any more, other than to stress again that I'm sure the OP is probably capable of something much better and rewarding.

[wracing 19]

DrSarty I'm just having a laugh.

 

Lets just say its not about peak figures, its about the integral of the power graph.

 

James

Edited June 23, 2010 by wracing

[SurGie 54]

More is less, less is more, more or less .

[fast_eddie 0]

You know what, if the op wants to get 'the most power out of a 205' then let him get on with it. This world is a mixed bag of eclectic folk and I for one, love to see this kind of thing. He may fail, he may spend X amount of thousands of pounds but what the freck is it anyone else's business to berate him and try to stop him doing it.

If the op shares his trials and tribulations with us, you never know, someone on here may learn something new---how freaky would that be...

I personally love the sound of a high revving 16v 4 pot but I also like the noise a V8 makes, a straight 6 makes, a straight 5 makes etc etc etc

 

best of luck Peter

[peter 20]

"Don't go to the 8v bottom end its quite frankly s*it. "

 

Excelent, so a better option would be?

My only reasoning behind that is to lower the compression and it has oil feeds and drains all ready there it cant be that different to the t16 can it? I have searched but cant realy find much to compare!

One of the 8v turbo engines uses flat top pistons so no need for valve cut outs that would be differnet to the 16v.

There cheap too!!

 

Personlay i dont care about total bhp figures or pub talk, there will be someone that will always have more...

But just to remind you, i in no way said i want more bhp then someone else etc etc

 

As for the point of it surely thats up to me?

I think everyone on this forum will agree with me when i say this but it feels good flying past someone on a track especially if they think your car/ power figure is pointless..

 

When i said i will want more hp... Who doesnt? If we didnt we would all have standard gti's

 

Im not wasting anymore of the thread explaining/arguing about the point of big hp fwd please feel free to start another thread if you wish.

 

Im sure there are quite a few people that would like to build a t16 on the cheap...

 

As for not being able to use the power i would like to experience this for myself!

 

I wonder if ericyellow would care to comment if his hp is pointless or useable

Edited June 23, 2010 by peter

[peter 20]

if the op wants to get 'the most power out of a 205' then let him get on with it

 

Thanks! Thats not realy my plan to be honest but i would like to know what the best spec would be to build if someone does want to build the highest hp t16...Without being rediculous ie parts that are actualy available to ourselves!

 

What if i wanted to hold the record for the fastest top speed for a 205 or even a fwd car for that matter?

 

 

However i dont!! Im quite happy sticking with a cheap and cheerfull 16v turbo that hopefully makes a decent amount of power, with the knowlage of how to make it better and where its weak points would be...

Edited June 23, 2010 by peter

[bales 1]

I'm not going to say that a big power fwd car is pointless....however I think your maximum power for minimum cost is pointless you'll just end up with a blown engine and even less money than you started with!

 

They are two conflicting aims - if all you want is big power why not jut stick as much nitrous as possible through something like an 8V turbo - they are supposed to be strong blocks. Thats the cheapest option surely...

 

Perhaps you could build a 16V turbo for under £1500 whether it would last long is probably another matter - you could easy spend that just on an ECU and mapping if you did it properly!

[peter 20]

Your missing the point completely, If i was to build a t16 cheaply and got it running, i would want to know where the weakness would be then improve it from there, Lets say the limiting factor was just the mapping then the ecu would be upgraded etc... You need to start somewhere!

 

in reply to the previous comments if it needs to be 4wd at a certain power level then it will be...

[Batfink 201]

one mans 'ultimate 205' is anothers 'crapbox'..There will always be another way which may or may not be better.

massive power can be controlled in a FWD car. No you cannot have 500bhp available off the line but thats what dexterity in your right foot is for.

I know of a seat ibiza running around 600bhp and my god it shifts. It even goes round corners too..

[sorrentoaddict 1]

In this age of accessible electronics, almost anything is really possible (I refer to limiting power output to, say, 150 BHP in 1st gear, 250 in 2nd gear, 350 in 3rd etc.., so that one could use the (otherwise easily attainable) 450-500 BHP in the 4th and 5th gear (maybe even 6th, depending on "guts output")... If one conceives such a FWD 205 Turbo project in this direction, it might be a really exciting mentally stimulating project, that might even be useful and driveable EVEN in the wet.

 

Humiliating M-Power vehicles on the autobahn is nothing but sheer fun, so even if one does not succeed in making such a monstrous 205 into a drivable and tameable car,

the sheer fun of using that power at the autobahn is enough to justify such an (on first sight totally pointless, I agree) exercise.

 

It will be bloody expensive to make it properly, though, as, at 500 BHP, every fraction of the angle that the driveshafts sit at will determine whether (and how soon) they'll break apart, not to mention gearbox mods, straight-cut gears etc. If you catch my drift, I am trying to say that if it's to be done, it better be done right, otherwise it is UTTERLY pointless (and in order to do it right, we are talking a seriously expensive project).

 

Provided one has very good knowledge of vehicle dynamics and an access to a nice simulator software, the power/torque thresholds for each gear (and even entirely different maps for every gear, WRC-style) can be easily calculated, depending on traction available, dynamically-changing centre of gravity/front-wheel-loading under acceleration etc.etc... So we are talking serious staff here..

 

On the other hand, some guys/girls just aim at as-much-tyre-smoke-as-possible - and in this case it can be a very cheap exercise (apart from the cost of tyres obviously).

 

enough...

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

I also don't see the point of changing the S16 block for an 8v one to get lower CR. How does that work?

 

It would obviously work by the 8v turbo block having (some of them at least.. oldest?) flat top pistons and you don't need to change anything in the bottom end and don't need to run double headgaskets to have the correct compression ratio....

 

I'm quite sure a standard 8v turbo bottom end will take about 400bhp as it is stock, no reason why not when the S16 seem to take around that levels and the rods and crankshafts are the same anyway on the two.

[wracing 19]

sorry peter i missed your question, while building my turbo car I did quite a large amount of research into using the 2.0turbo block, I discounted it because:

 

Thin piston crowns

Rod cross section thin

Rod was considerably weaker when tested against s16 or 1.9 8v rod. (i didnt test them personally but witnessed the results).

 

I would go for a fully rebuilt S16 motor with standard compression, and spend your money on a good turbo, managment and intercooler. this will give you a strong engine off boost.

 

Before I get rubbished look at some of the turbo engines of today, they run high static compression, to do this they simply have a very fine control on fuelling, ignition and inlet charge temps.

 

James

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

James piston crowns might be thin, that I don't know anything about, but the rods surely are the same forging on both the S16/T16 and the XU10J2/TE engines, 152mm long ones all of them.

 

A friend is running one of these XU10J2TE engines and the XU10J2 rods are just the same as the ones in the turbo-engine. The S16 and T16 ones are the same too, apart from floating piston pin and that the T16 is 2mm thicker at the big end due to the forged crankshaft is wider than the cast one that the other 3 engines use.

 

Not that I've studied a flat top 8v piston I suspect it's more or less the same piston as found in the T16 engine as standard.