Ew/dw12 96mm Crank.

[mxcrazy 0]

Hi there,

 

Does anybody have information on size of the ew or dw 12 cranks, ie, big end diameter, and big end width.

 

I know it is 96mm stroke, and it seems there will have to be mods to the block to get it to fit, (XU10).

 

Im planning to build a 96 x 88 motor for 2335cc, using the 96mm crank, T16 rods (thats if the ew/dw12 crank has 50mm big end and 26mm wide) with the pistons i have already and decking the block by 2mm, if that is viable?

 

Cheers

[welshpug 1,666]

looking at the FM catalogue;

 

same big end bearings as the 2.0 HDI, and the 2.2 engine used in the transit.

 

mains are the same as the 1.9 d, 2.0 hdi and the 2.0 XU petrols, and the 2.2 transit again.

 

not found any other data yet.

[mxcrazy 0]

looking at the FM catalogue;

 

same big end bearings as the 2.0 HDI, and the 2.2 engine used in the transit.

 

mains are the same as the 1.9 d, 2.0 hdi and the 2.0 XU petrols, and the 2.2 transit again.

 

not found any other data yet.

 

OK, cheers for that, also does anybody know the length of the usable bore in an Xu10 block?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

OK, cheers for that, also does anybody know the length of the usable bore in an Xu10 block?

 

You can do 96mm for sure, as some of our Scandinavian friends have already.

 

I'm not quite sure though that the EW/DW12 cranks are usable in the XU block though. I could be wrong, as Wardy did something with an 8v version which sounds similar.

 

Have a look at his recent engine build thread for info; prior to his recent crash.

[welshpug 1,666]

in the conrod/big end listings (on servicebox) there is a dimension of 54.4mm shown, whether that's for the crank pin or the conrod diameter I'm unsure.

 

they do have a large sprocket on the crank between the #2 main and big end crank journals on both the EW12 and DW12 cranks to drive a balancer shaft that sits underneath the crankshaft, doesn't look like this would interfere with much as its the same height as the counterweight.

 

can't find a great deal more about them, manufacturer data is what you need!

 

maybe a case of getting an engine and taking it to bits seeing what fits, or just stick the EW12 in as is

Edited April 3, 2010 by welshpug

[mxcrazy 0]

You can do 96mm for sure, as some of our Scandinavian friends have already.

 

I'm not quite sure though that the EW/DW12 cranks are usable in the XU block though. I could be wrong, as Wardy did something with an 8v version which sounds similar.

 

Have a look at his recent engine build thread for info; prior to his recent crash.

 

I have had a read through and there doesnt seem to be any definitive information, hard facts so to speak.

 

I have Pm'd wardy to see if he can shed any light on the matter.

 

I know enough people/companies that can do block boring, decking, cranks, cam grinding, heads, valves seats and general machine work for beer money/favours/mates rates. Also having a father that works at Quaife is a bonus, he has more contacts himself if i need.

 

I know i can get rods made for not alot of money, Chinese ones, seem to have a reasonable reputation, but id like to use an OEM rod if possible, its just finding the width of the big end on the ew/dw12 crank, i dont intend revving this thing hard, nor am i aiming for masses of horsepower, id be happy even at 2.3 to see 230bhp and as close to 200ft lb as poss. I know of someone with 2 cranks for sale, but they are still in engines at the moment so not much help, i have emailed QEP too, but i dont suppose i'll see a reply until next week sometime. Im half excited to find out these things so i can see if its viable, i know i can build an 88 x 88 real easy, i think thats the problem, ive got it on a plate, and id like to build a 2.3 basically, something not so common, a bit of a challenge.

 

God only knows how much its going to cost me to insure the thing once its done, im 21 now, it'll be finished hopefully by the time im 24, july 2012.

[mxcrazy 0]

in the conrod/big end listings (on servicebox) there is a dimension of 54.4mm shown, whether that's for the crank pin or the conrod diameter I'm unsure.

 

they do have a large sprocket on the crank between the #2 main and big end crank journals on both the EW12 and DW12 cranks to drive a balancer shaft that sits underneath the crankshaft, doesn't look like this would interfere with much as its the same height as the counterweight.

 

can't find a great deal more about them, manufacturer data is what you need!

 

maybe a case of getting an engine and taking it to bits seeing what fits, or just stick the EW12 in as is

 

Is it possible to screen shot the page showing that Welshpug? So i can have a look, i can get a crank for £150, just i dont want to burn £150 if i dont have to, and i dont have an engine i can take apart really anyway, not yet. (ive got 3 306 gti's, just all have to stay mobile for the time being)

 

Im hoping that 54.4mm is the bore of the con rod, and it actually uses a 50mm crank pin.

 

Does it list a dimension that would equal it on the xu10 side of things on servicebox? because if that shows 53.7 then we can kind of assume its the rod bore. I dont know.

[welshpug 1,666]

afraid not no, seems quite random what information is actually shown.

 

£150 is a fair bit just for a crank, though I guess they're not that old or easy to get hold of.

[mxcrazy 0]

afraid not no, seems quite random what information is actually shown.

 

£150 is a fair bit just for a crank, though I guess they're not that old or easy to get hold of.

 

OK, cheers for looking,

 

I didnt think £150 was too bad to be honest, as you say considering they arn't that easy to get hold of.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

ignore me - didn't read post properly

Edited April 4, 2010 by brumster

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I've done some research on EW cranks, which I will look up for you.

 

TBH Welshpug is on the right lines in that you'd be better off with a complete EW engine, as the block is alloy and a lot lighter.

 

The diesel crank options from the XUDs would be fine if you wanted to stay with an iron XU block.

 

Remember I have under 2.2L (2187cc) with a 87 x 92 bore x stroke and that's circa 240bhp and 196lbft torques, so it's really not necessary to eek out any more CCs, and you'd be getting further and further away from a square engine, and revving a 16v is where the power and fun is.

 

The extra CC's just make it massively tractable lower down the rev range, and if you go for an even longer stroke you'll be denying yourself top end fun potentially. I'd stay 92mm TBH and get 87.5 or 88mm out of the XU block; or go EW all the way to get the weight saving.

[welshpug 1,666]

and that 240 bhp/196lbft is on pretty mild cams too

[mxcrazy 0]

I've done some research on EW cranks, which I will look up for you.

 

TBH Welshpug is on the right lines in that you'd be better off with a complete EW engine, as the block is alloy and a lot lighter.

 

The diesel crank options from the XUDs would be fine if you wanted to stay with an iron XU block.

 

Remember I have under 2.2L (2187cc) with a 87 x 92 bore x stroke and that's circa 240bhp and 196lbft torques, so it's really not necessary to eek out any more CCs, and you'd be getting further and further away from a square engine, and revving a 16v is where the power and fun is.

 

The extra CC's just make it massively tractable lower down the rev range, and if you go for an even longer stroke you'll be denying yourself top end fun potentially. I'd stay 92mm TBH and get 87.5 or 88mm out of the XU block; or go EW all the way to get the weight saving.

 

Thanks, DrS.

 

I dont want to try and turn it in to a diesel, with no puff up top, i believe from my travels across the net, and reading that there is no reason why it wont still rev up top. I wont need to rev the thing to 8k to get the power anyway.

 

Obviously the stock J4RS lump is square bore x stroke (1:1), but the 1.9Mi is 83 x 88 (0.9431 bore stroke ratio), and that has no problems revving does it? Also the Honda b18c5 is 81 x 87.2 with a 8000+ rpm redline and max power at 8k (0.928 bore stroke), the engine i want to do is 88 x 96 (0.916 bore stroke).

 

I have 3 xu10 lumps to play with, and im trying to keep this as cost effective as possible, i know neither way is going to be cheap, but i dont want to start having to buy and mess with the ew12 lump.

 

If the 96mm crank isnt going to work without a lot of f****** about then i will stay 88mm using 158mm rods and the pistons i have. If its not too bad, and i can use reasonably off the shelf parts and some machine work then i will do 96 x 88, if it end up being not what i want it to be, at least i will have tried and i will build something else.

Edited April 4, 2010 by mxcrazy

[welshpug 1,666]

deck height is about 235mm in an XU if that helps calculations at all

[mxcrazy 0]

deck height is about 235mm in an XU if that helps calculations at all

 

Ideally i need to know the actual bore length, just need someone thats got a bare block to send a tape measure down it to see what the usable length is, then i will find out if im getting near to pulling the piston out the bottom of the block using 152mm rods.

[welshpug 1,666]

I doubt it, think about the 88mm 1.9 with 143mm rods, I have a block sat outside though I'll see if I can get a measurement off it.

[mxcrazy 0]

I doubt it, think about the 88mm 1.9 with 143mm rods, I have a block sat outside though I'll see if I can get a measurement off it.

 

I suppose so Mei, if you could have a measure that would be very helpfull. thanks

[welshpug 1,666]

A few very quick measurements (didn't have my sockets to hand to take a rod+piston out)

 

305mm total block height, bottom of cylinder bores roughly 145mm from lower block face, so cylinder bore is around 160mm.

 

RFS piston/rod is 192mm tall from centreline to top, overall height of gti6 piston is 58mm, so bottom of gti6 piston at BDC sits 144mm from deck, 16mm above the bottom of the bores.

 

 

If you wanted to use 158mm gti6 rods, you'd need a 29mm compression height piston (235mm deck height - [96/2=48mm] - 158mm)

 

Not sure if a piston that shallow is possible, work off 152mm RFY rods and you'd get 35mm compression height, which I don't think an RFS piston is far from.

 

I'd double check the measurements yourself if you can though, they were very quick tape measure, I haven't got a vernier!

[mxcrazy 0]

A few very quick measurements (didn't have my sockets to hand to take a rod+piston out)

 

305mm total block height, bottom of cylinder bores roughly 145mm from lower block face, so cylinder bore is around 160mm.

 

RFS piston/rod is 192mm tall from centreline to top, overall height of gti6 piston is 58mm, so bottom of gti6 piston at BDC sits 144mm from deck, 16mm above the bottom of the bores.

 

 

If you wanted to use 158mm gti6 rods, you'd need a 29mm compression height piston (235mm deck height - [96/2=48mm] - 158mm)

 

Not sure if a piston that shallow is possible, work off 152mm RFY rods and you'd get 35mm compression height, which I don't think an RFS piston is far from.

 

I'd double check the measurements yourself if you can though, they were very quick tape measure, I haven't got a vernier!

 

Many thanks Welshpug, my pistons are 1mm lower pin to face height than a stock GTI6 piston, they are the ones im sure i emailed you the specs for. 52mm piston overall height, 33mm compression height. 52 + 96 = 148 (my piston and dw/ew crank) and as you say 58 + 86 = 144, 148 and 144 being the length of the bore respective that is needed for the stroke and piston height. 160 - 144 = the 16mm you got, 160 - 148 = 12mm left of bore at BDC for my set up.

 

If i can deck the block 2mm to get the pistons flush then i might be on the right track. If its not feasible to deck 2mm then custom 154mm rods it looks like it would be.

 

I just need to find definitive answers on big end diameter and width now.

[mxcrazy 0]

Many thanks Welshpug, my pistons are 1mm lower pin to face height than a stock GTI6 piston, they are the ones im sure i emailed you the specs for. 52mm piston overall height, 33mm compression height. 52 + 96 = 148 (my piston and dw/ew crank) and as you say 58 + 86 = 144, 148 and 144 being the length of the bore respective that is needed for the stroke and piston height. 160 - 144 = the 16mm you got, 160 - 148 = 12mm left of bore at BDC for my set up.

 

If i can deck the block 2mm to get the pistons flush then i might be on the right track. If its not feasible to deck 2mm then custom 154mm rods it looks like it would be.

 

I just need to find definitive answers on big end diameter and width now.

 

Oh to add, i think because i would have to lose 2mm from the block (i start 2mm lower in the block at TDC) i would be left with 10mm of the block left at BDC.

[mxcrazy 0]

Spoke to Matt at Q.E.P today, sound guy i must say from our brief conversation, more than helpful.

 

He's going to measure Wardys crank for me when he gets a chance, we're getting there slowly but surely.

 

Lets hope hey, i will try and document as much as i can, and hopefully get some more people building 96mm stroke motors.