Desperately Seeking Horses

[Guest paulyo]

Hello Guys

I’m new to the site looking for a bit of advice on tuning my 1.6 gti

I’m hopefully racing it this year in the tin tops series, car runs great, handling, brakes engine all amazing considering its 20 year old, but it’s lacking in top speed, any track with long straights its just to slow, snetterton 5 seconds off the pace, not good .

Needs a quick fix, any advise about the pros and cons of twin Webber’s or bike carb’s and possibly a change of cam would be great, also any pointers on companies that specialise in this kind of stuff would be good too I'm in west Yorkshire.

paul

[omega 82]

swap the engine for a 1.9,mi or 16v

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

swap the engine for a 1.9,mi or 16v

 

And to see if that's what you want to do, or see other options, try searching and looking through many of the project threads on here.

 

Most of the things you can think of have been covered, so try there first.

 

In short though, the answer is money. £600-£1000 would see you get an Mi16 installed. A 1.9 you could do for half that. If you try and tune the 1.6, I reckon to get even close to that power you'd be looking at double the first amount.

 

Good luck researching as there's plenty on here.

[welshpug 1,662]

I would suspect that the O.P is restricted to 1600 cc in the class he currently runs in.

 

The regulations as to what you can and can't do will help massively here, as well as the options that would be open to you if you were to go for increased capacity.

[Daviewonder 533 3 Cars]

Maybe fit a 106 gti engine?

[Guest paulyo]

I would suspect that the O.P is restricted to 1600 cc in the class he currently runs in.

 

The regulations as to what you can and can't do will help massively here, as well as the options that would be open to you if you were to go for increased capacity.

 

 

yep the class is up to 1600cc 8 valve no restriction on virtually anything else except turbo's so induction or engine internals are pretty much free, only really restricted by money been quoted £600.00 to convert to bike carbs and set up, noticed the webber set up on here for £350.00 they could be a good alternative not sure if they'll give the same performance, what do you think

[vickiw106 1]

yep the class is up to 1600cc 8 valve no restriction on virtually anything else except turbo's so induction or engine internals are pretty much free, only really restricted by money been quoted £600.00 to convert to bike carbs and set up, noticed the webber set up on here for £350.00 they could be a good alternative not sure if they'll give the same performance, what do you think

 

i ran a 1600 8v on dellorto 40's with a mild cam and it was pulling 145 on the rolling road,

 

i have now gone for dellorto 45's to try and get more power,

 

thanks

ian

[welshpug 1,662]

I presume you have a pretty sorted chassis already?

 

what are the other cars you're running against?

 

I guess Saxo VTR's and 106 Rallyes? Novas and Corsas, Fiestas and so on?

[Guest paulyo]

I presume you have a pretty sorted chassis already?

 

what are the other cars you're running against?

 

I guess Saxo VTR's and 106 Rallyes? Novas and Corsas, Fiestas and so on?

 

the car drives great wet or dry totally predictable standard except for Koni front suspension, feels like it'll handle more power easily

Cars in the series are a proper mixture 205's, 106, alfa's, fiats, XR2 etc. A 205 run in the series is for sale on pistonheads quoting 175bhp, if I'm lucky mines got 110 so I'd better do something about it or I'm gona get shown up.

[welshpug 1,662]

and how much is that 205 for sale for?

 

I'd probably buy it rather than spend the money on what you've already got.

[Guest paulyo]

and how much is that 205 for sale for?

 

I'd probably buy it rather than spend the money on what you've already got.

 

It's up for £5700 a bit steep!, anyway I've spent a couple of grand on mine so far to make it race legal which i wont get back when i sell it so I'm commited to it for this year, it's not far off right, it's pace is OK on slower tracks like cadwell, but loses out on the faster ones, I'm going to put a bit more into it carbs and a cam and see how i go. Just got to decide which set up.

[welshpug 1,662]

£5700 is nothing for a sorted race car IMO, depends on the spec of course, but if its competitive as you say and has a decent engine is worth it.

 

I bet you'd have to spend more on yours to get it as good as the one for sale, than you would if you sold yours and bought another.

 

 

That is of course if you want to be competitive straight away, some people enjoy the process of building the car as much as racing it, I know I certainly would, but not paying for it!

 

Personally if you are keeping it you need to get far better suspension on there than road dampers and standard torsion bars before touching the engine, and the brakes come to mention it, the more grip you have the less you'll need to brake

Edited March 19, 2010 by welshpug

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

Without want to sound like a stuck record, because I know it's the obvious advice, but have you trimmed as much weight as you can from the car while staying within the regulations?

 

Reason being serious engine power is ex-pen-sive, and while we often refuse to admit it, there are other ways to be competitive that are far more cost effective! You could spend £2k getting your 1600 8v up to 150 horses, but it could still break on your 2nd race. You could spend £2k on suspension, brake or body mods and they'll last you a lot longer and might allow you to carry more speed or accelerate better. You might loose out on the straights but hey, you can nail 'em in the corners! After all, that's the 205 way!

[Bigtimmy 1]

I'd have to agree with the above, I've only done two track days so I'm not super qualified to give advice, but I stripped all the weight out of my 205, have left the engine pretty much standard apart from a baffled sump and a K&N and concentrated on the brakes and suspension and it is simply stunning to drive on track, I laughed so much the first time I went on track I think a bit of wee might have come out!

 

Another experience on my second track day has led me to the follwing conclusion "A average 911 driver can make a reasonable 205 driver look like a hero!" Whilst never being able to keep up with him on the straights, being able to brake later and deeper into the corners makes such a difference that we came out of corners together he left me and then I was right up his trumpet again into the next corner.

 

I suppose I'm trying to say what the others are but in some kind of long winded way, so I'll shut up now!

[Guest paulyo]

I'd have to agree with the above, I've only done two track days so I'm not super qualified to give advice, but I stripped all the weight out of my 205, have left the engine pretty much standard apart from a baffled sump and a K&N and concentrated on the brakes and suspension and it is simply stunning to drive on track, I laughed so much the first time I went on track I think a bit of wee might have come out!

 

Another experience on my second track day has led me to the follwing conclusion "A average 911 driver can make a reasonable 205 driver look like a hero!" Whilst never being able to keep up with him on the straights, being able to brake later and deeper into the corners makes such a difference that we came out of corners together he left me and then I was right up his trumpet again into the next corner.

 

I suppose I'm trying to say what the others are but in some kind of long winded way, so I'll shut up now!

 

I hear what your all saying but the car is already light, the only way it's getting lighter is plastic windows, and body panels. Could look at losing some off my belly but that seem a bit extreme. It handles brill (might not be as standard as I think)

 

I've done 15 or so track days in it and agree 100% with the pleasure to be had from giving road going super cars a hard time in the twisty stuff (I've had a bit of wee come out as well but thought it was an age thing)

 

Anyway the facts remain no matter how well I'm exiting corners, on long straights it runs out of steam which means in a race situation anyone with more power will get past me.

So the questions remains bike carbs or twin webbers and which cam choice, anyone got an opinion on which, if not I'll have to flip a coin (my usual technique for tricky decisions)

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

So the questions remains bike carbs or twin webbers and which cam choice, anyone got an opinion on which, if not I'll have to flip a coin (my usual technique for tricky decisions)

 

But have you tried a search and looked into what others have done as I suggested yet?

 

Webers (not webbers) or bike carbs will do exactly the same job. You will be at the mercy of your distributor though and will see a gain in power.

 

Cam choices will be covered in other threads, if you look. Likewise with exhaust manifold choices, as a 4-(2)-1 system plus will also give you a slight gain.

 

ECU management which is mappable - even on just the standard set up (single TB, plenum and OE injectors plus OE cam) - will yield some improvement.

 

Then after that, it's jut a question of how much you want to spend. The key is making it all work together. But if you go for a mappable ECU, then I would skip carbs altogether and go for ITBs. But then, all in, you'll be looking at around £2,000 including cam, vernier and valve seat/head work, maybe more.

[Guest paulyo]

But have you tried a search and looked into what others have done as I suggested yet?

 

Webers (not webbers) or bike carbs will do exactly the same job. You will be at the mercy of your distributor though and will see a gain in power.

 

Cam choices will be covered in other threads, if you look. Likewise with exhaust manifold choices, as a 4-(2)-1 system plus will also give you a slight gain.

 

ECU management which is mappable - even on just the standard set up (single TB, plenum and OE injectors plus OE cam) - will yield some improvement.

 

Then after that, it's jut a question of how much you want to spend. The key is making it all work together. But if you go for a mappable ECU, then I would skip carbs altogether and go for ITBs. But then, all in, you'll be looking at around £2,000 including cam, vernier and valve seat/head work, maybe more.

 

yes not as straight forward as I'd hoped, looks like I'm spending a few hours in the archives, I think it'll end up been webers and cam sound like the best (possibly only) option on my skimpy budget

thanks for all your help

[dcc 855]

tbh, i think its more important to have 'healthy engine > headwork/cam/induction' type of attitude. a manifold + webers + ecu map = best course imho if engine is already healthy!

Edited March 20, 2010 by dcc

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

If you truly are searchin horses then build a proper engine from scratch.

If not.. well maybe don't do anything to it... tuning with "only" 50% empathy is often not worth it, as you need the whole package to get it right anyway.

 

I would say a proper engine build will cost somewhere between 5000-10000£ depending on how much the head work does cost.

Well as it's a 8v an already have mechanical lifters, maybe it's actually possible to get something good for 4000£

 

Just my experience with engine tuning, it's expensive to get it right...