Baffled Mi Sump Vs Gti6 Sump And Extended Pickup?

[petert 588]

Than even the 1.9?

 

I think you may have stated this earlier in the topic, but screwed if i know for sure and where in amonsgt those 10 pages!

 

Yes, 1.6 has smaller big end journals. I really don't think it would make any difference but just something to add, along with the pixies.

[Batfink 201]

Here's a new conspiracy theory: the smaller journal diameter of the 1.6L crank leaks less oil past the the rod bearings.

 

I would hazard a guess that the shorter stroke is kinder on internals too...pixies

Edited April 12, 2010 by Batfink

[welshpug 1,661]

i love the pixies

 

XU7 shares the 45mm big ends (same rods) as the XU5, don't forget the rod-stroke ratios as well.

[sideways danny 0]

I believe it's oil breather related. I've seen it elsewhere, and solved the problem by ensuring there isn't a vacuum in the rocker cover holding oil high up. On skylines it's common practice to enlarge oil drain holes from the head, On 200sx's there's a breather that's well known to block up solid with carbon crud, both engines with a reputation for bottom end failures. I'll be doing some proper investigation into it as i build up my own Mi

[mollisk 2 1 Cars]

I have a XU9JA in a 205 rally car and not experienced any problems with oil pressure. The car is used mainly on tarmac using racing tyres and subject to very fast, sweeping left and right hand bends.

When I built the engine I knew that they had a reputation for oil control problems and carried out the following modifications. A PTS baffled sump was fitted to a steel sump along with a group 'A' relief spring in the oil pump. In addition an 'Accusump' was also fitted. ( I understand that they were fitted to the works 16V 309 rally cars ). As added insurance I will fit external aeroquip oil drain lines from the cylinder head to the sump at the next opportunity. I saw simplar mods. on pictures of BTCC engines which had cylinder head drain lines feeding the scavange pumps on the dry sump system.

 

.

[welshpug 1,661]

that wont be needed on an 8 valver!

[Alan_M 66 1 Cars]

I'm going to try and summarize all of this and never speak of it again. You will never cure oil surge with a wet sump, you'll only minimize it. In order to minimize it, you need to attack from a number of angles, as Martin has suggested. I did some measuring. The side rod clearances of three models goes like this:

 

XU9J2 - 0.33mm

XU9J4 - 2.20mm

XU10J4 - 0.30-0.41mm (I measured two cranks)

 

As you can see, a standard XU9J4 is going to leak a lot more oil out the side of the rods than the other two. It has to. On my track 205, I am currently running an XU9J4 head on a XU10J4 block/crank/rods, with all my other wet sump goodies. I have acceptable oil pressure with semi slicks. I have a big red light that comes on at 25psi. Impossible to miss, unlike a gauge, and it only come on at idle. So it has absolutely nothing to do with what type of head you have. Sure, a 16V might retain half a litre more in the head, so put another half in. That's not rocket science.

 

Other than baffling, probably the most important item is a windage tray. This is why Miles recommends the PTS setup. It had a combined windage tray and baffle arrangement. Look at the Moroso web site if you don't think it's important.

 

Finally, consider the following factory improvements of an XU10J4 (and RS) over an XU9J4:

 

- trap door sump

- windage tray

- reduced side rod clearance

- chain guard

- pump baffle

- higher pump speed

- increased oil pressure (the least important IMO)

 

Do all that to an XU9J4 and you won't need to push it on to the trailer, or hire a flat top.

 

Whilst my head is off and getting rebuilt, I'm tempted to have a go at this lot. Got some 8v rods that I can have machined at work, and should have the pump/guard etc from a GTi6 kicking about. Also got a PTS baffle as well.

[Jrod 7]

I offered up one of the modified windage trays today but unfortunatley it doesn't fit.

 

It fouls on the bit that covers the oil filler pipe and also the oil level sensor, Guess I'll get the grinder out...

[mmt 15]

Pics, Please

[Jrod 7]

Sat on but bolt holes not lined up:

 

Try to line them up and it touched here:

and here:

[JeffR 51]

It looks like the windage tray needs moving to the left a frag. If you look a my pic you'll see that the w/tray bolt holes (#4 end) line up opposite the oil pump supply hole & no clearance issues.

[Jrod 7]

There is no way to move it though is there? Other than drilling out the holes on the tray and sliding it across.

 

I'll have a look at it later.

[Jrod 7]

Had a look and mines going to need moving across a fair bit.

I think it will actually need new holes drilling as its a good 7-8mm out.

 

When bolting the tray onto the spacer plate do you use loctite?

[petert 588]

I'm sorry I didn't notice this earlier.

 

You're on the right track but the standard four mounting holes are not used with the new ribs. Nine (three in each rib) M5 holes need to be drilled/tapped into the ribs. Did I supply just the ribs? Or spacer plate with ribs? And windage tray?

 

You'll notice there are notches in the ribs which are designed to clear lumps in the windage tray.

 

The only problem I can see from your pics is the dip stick. You might need to notch the plate to ensure the stick doesn't follow the contour of the plate.

 

You also need to be careful to install the plate parallel to the sump/block face. Otherwise, the nuts on the conrods may foul. Everything is 1mm closer with the 88mm crank. Notching the plate may be necessary there as well.

 

The drawing below shows the exact finished position. Use nine M5x12 button head cap screws to attach the plate to the ribs.

Edited May 17, 2010 by petert

[Jrod 7]

I'm sorry I didn't notice this earlier.

 

You're on the right track but the standard four mounting holes are not used with the new ribs. Nine (three in each rib) M5 holes need to be drilled/tapped into the ribs. Did I supply just the ribs? Or spacer plate with ribs? And windage tray?

 

You'll notice there are notches in the ribs which are designed to clear lumps in the windage tray.

 

The only problem I can see from your pics is the dip stick. You might need to notch the plate to ensure the stick doesn't follow the contour of the plate.

 

You also need to be careful to install the plate parallel to the sump/block face. Otherwise, the nuts on the conrods may foul. Everything is 1mm closer with the 88mm crank. Notching the plate may be necessary there as well.

 

The drawing below shows the exact finished position. Use nine M5x12 button head cap screws to attach the plate to the ribs.

 

I bought the extended main bolts as I was planning on bolting it on with them aswell.

 

I think you supplied the whole thing, the tray is bolted onto the ribs already with m5x12 button head bolts, I think there are 4 in each rib though not 3. Also the tray has been modified at the top.

 

The dipstick has plenty of room, its the oil level sensor at the top which is a problem along with the cover for the oil filler.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Jrod

[Jrod 7]

Ok had another look.

 

You were right It does actually hit the dipstick. Also I was wrong, it is 3 button headed bolts like you said. I removed them to see how it would fit then, The problem is the raised section of the middle hole will foul the rib if it sits where it needs to.

 

If you compare mine to Jeffs it looks like the ribs are further left in his.

 

I can't figure out what you picture shows so have included some measurements of mine.

 

 

A, oil filler

B, raised section, fouls if you move the tray enough so that it doesnt touch A

C, Oil level, always touches

D, dipstick, always touches.

 

C and D should be easy to fix if I just grind a little bit out. I'm not sure what I can do about the rest though as it seems the tray is sat in the wrong place because of the ribs being too far over.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Jrod

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I'm not sure why you've still got the oil level sender fitted. Snip it short and just make it a bung instead.

[Jrod 7]

I'm not sure why you've still got the oil level sender fitted. Snip it short and just make it a bung instead.

 

Because no one has ever told me otherwise. It's my first time doing anything this indepth so I'm just trying ot learn as I go along.

[A2TheA 0]

how did you get on with refitting the windage tray?

 

im attempting mine this weekend petert hasnt replied to me ... im going to have to go it alone

 

Aaron

[Jrod 7]

I'm waiting to hear back from Peter regarding the measurments for the alloy ribs.

[mmt 15]

Maybe a stupid question...teach me!

 

What does the windage tray?

 

What does it do up high in the engine?

 

It seems that it does not prevent oil from travelling up the sides under hard braking/acceleration. I thought that the tray should be a tight fit up against the engine sides.

[A2TheA 0]

Maybe a stupid question...teach me!

 

What does the windage tray?

 

What does it do up high in the engine?

 

It seems that it does not prevent oil from travelling up the sides under hard braking/acceleration. I thought that the tray should be a tight fit up against the engine sides.

 

 

a windage tray keeps the oil away from the revolving crankshaft. it acts as a 'lid/cap' on top of the oil sump

[Jrod 7]

Aaron, Did you buy a kit or it fully made up?

 

I'm after the measurements as to where the ribs should be in the spacer as I think mine are in the wrong location.

[A2TheA 0]

Aaron, Did you buy a kit or it fully made up?

 

I'm after the measurements as to where the ribs should be in the spacer as I think mine are in the wrong location.

 

 

I'm manufacturing some this afternoon to be honest with you. I'm planning on using the rib location posted above. But I'm sure it's not overly important where the ribs are. As long as they hold the windage tray and do not obstruct the oil pick up you should be fine.

 

Aaron

[Bally 4]

This same reason is why I could never understand what the other forums have on us.(VW, Ford, vauxhal etc).

20 years later and we still dont have a definate answer to the causes or solution to the following.

1. Oil surge in a 16valve

2. How to make a set hp. For instance u can buy definate kits for ford,vw,vauxhall to get a proven hp.

3. No one produces performance parts in enough quantities to make them cheaply.