Baffled Mi Sump Vs Gti6 Sump And Extended Pickup?

[Jrod 7]

What do people prefer to reduce surge?

 

Miles recommended me a baffle rather than the pickup but just wondered what others do?

Edited March 12, 2010 by Jrod

[Baz 421]

Both?

[Jrod 7]

Both a baffled MI sump and a gti6 sump?

 

Do people baffle gti6 sumps aswell then?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Do people baffle gti6 sumps aswell then?

 

They are baffled!

[Jrod 7]

It's hardly baffled, its got a trap door which doesnt even go to the top.

[welshpug 1,661]

It can't go to the top, the windage tray is in the way.

[Jrod 7]

Even when fitted to a xu9j4?

Edited March 12, 2010 by Jrod

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Even when fitted to a xu9j4?

 

Perhaps have a read of PeterT's website. Click.

[Jrod 7]

I've read it before. I currently (well, before I had oil surge issues...) use his setup of the gti6 sump and extended pickup, the only bit I don't have is the windage tray.

 

As I said I was talking to Miles and he did't think this was the way to go and recommended a Mi sump with a baffle. I trust Miles opinion as he's been playing with 205's since before I even considered what a car was I think!

 

I just wondered what other people opinions were, what setups people use etc. I'm not going to dry sump as I can't justify the money on a 205.

[Anthony 1,003]

For what it's worth, in my experience, a baffled Mi sump reduces, but certainly doesn't eliminate, the oil surge issue on an Mi engine - that's both with a GTi-6 style trap-door type arrangement, and a PTS "eggbox" baffle.

 

Given how much worse the issue is with the oil level lower than maximum, I'd personally run the Petert extended pickup - it isn't going to cure the problem either, but my attitude is that the more oil there is in the sump, the longer it'll take before the pickup is starved and pressure drops. No reason that you couldn't further baffle a GTi-6 sump though in addition to extending the pickup, to better control the oil *and* have more of it

[Masekwm 2]

I've got the full PeterT setup sat in my garage, I'm tempted to sell it and just fit a baffle. Which is better? Is it a case of much the same, or does PeterT get rid of the surge? I've only suffered it in the bus stop at Llandow but don't want any more.

[Jrod 7]

I was using the gti6 sump and extended pickup and had surge on an autosolo. It took a while to build but in long corners eventually the gauge dropped and the light came on. I didn't suffer any damage to the bearings but the piston had issues shortly after.

[petert 588]

No reason that you couldn't further baffle a GTi-6 sump though in addition to extending the pickup, to better control the oil *and* have more of it

 

The GTi6 wall is a bit low. The best sump to baffle is the aluminium, non-finned, 8V A/C sump. You can then build the wall all the way to the top and add the spacer plate/windage tray & extended pickup. The top of the wall does need to be relieved (radiused) to accept the profile of the windage tray, but not all the way across. It should still be the full height on the sides. You should be running approx. 7L of oil. This amount just laps underneath the windage tray. I never see less than 25psi with this setup. You will never stop the oil surging completely with a wet sump. You just have to accept the limit of protection that it can provide.

[Jrod 7]

The GTi6 wall is a bit low. The best sump to baffle is the aluminium, non-finned, 8V A/C sump. You can then build the wall all the way to the top and add the spacer plate/windage tray & extended pickup. The top of the wall does need to be relieved (radiused) to accept the profile of the windage tray, but not all the way across. It should still be the full height on the sides. You should be running approx. 7L of oil. This amount just laps underneath the windage tray. I never see less than 25psi with this setup. You will never stop the oil surging completely with a wet sump. You just have to accept the limit of protection that it can provide.

 

Thanks Peter!

 

I understand that its not a cure, just covering it up a bit. Do you think the gti6 sump is up to standard?

 

Realistically an autosolo isn't much more than a glorified drive around a car park albeit a bit faster than normal (still 2nd gear only) and this was enough to put my stop light on, worrying.

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

My engine used to have the PTS style baffle when in Dino's possession and he said he got oil surge. I changed to the extended pickup and GTi-6 sump and still get oil surge.

 

My next step is to fit the pump baffle, chain gaurd, and extend the GTi-6 baffle as the spacer plate effectively lowers the height of the baffle. Considering a windage tray as well.

 

Like you say it's just a coverup but better than no coverup or spending £££ on a dry sump

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

As I've said to Jordon, Extending the sump on Circuits or even roads isn;t a good idea, Even on std UK roads you will see the bottom on the sump with marks on from grounding out so lowing it any more will just result in it cracking which I have had a couple to swap over like that now,

Circuit's are a big no no due to the Kerb's unless you keep clear of them.

I would use the PTS (France only) baffle in the std R or RS sump,

[mmt 15]

Are we concluding that NOTHING WORKS. These fantastic engines will always surge and self destruct when driven hard(long bends and high revs)???

 

Is dry sump the only remedy?

 

Has all the 750 club racers fitted dry sump or changing engine after every outing?

 

PTS baffle is that the "eggbox baffle"?

Edited March 18, 2010 by mmt

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

The 750 and most Stock series use the 8v engine which doesn;t suffer as much, I know the 1.6's are pretty much indestructable, My old Stock hatch engine with a mere 122 bhp lasted around 7 years before I lost track of it.

[mmt 15]

What in the 8v engines makes them so much better. Did Peugeot just design poor oilways in the 16v.

 

I don´t believe the "tale" about the differences in rod design is the mother of all 16 v surge problems.

[rallysteve 22]

Is it not possible to machine in better oilways to the head to help the oil get back down to the sump?

 

Steve

[mmt 15]

so the surge is mainly caused by oil starvation...oil not getting back down into the sump?

[welshpug 1,661]

so the surge is mainly caused by oil starvation...oil not getting back down into the sump?

 

it certainly seems like it, as well as the increased oil consumption of these engines, something which the gti6 just doesn't seem to suffer from at all even with the same sump.

 

the 8 valve is quite a simple top end compared to the MI16's, 8 large solid bucket type tappets, a simple opil spray bar and a single cam.

 

as opposed to 16 hydraulic tappets two camshafts more than double the area of spraybar and a massive area that can retain oil, how the return galleries to the bottom end compare I don't know, but the iron block castings between the S16 and gti6 are extremely close, so it must be the heads surely?

Edited March 18, 2010 by welshpug

[JeffR 51]

What about the external drains theory?

 

I know this has been spoken about in the past, but there's been no feedback one way or the other.

[mmt 15]

Using the dry sump the oil still needs to find its way back to/through the bottom, ??? or?

 

How did the 405 mi16 BTCC cars manage to last and not self destruct from surge. I have not seen any external oilways on the dry sumped Mi16 BTCC engines.(at least not in the pictures availiable to me).

 

I really thought that the "PeterT" instructions on wet sump control worked even when using sticky slick tyres on a track.

[rallysteve 22]

With the dry sump its less of a problem as the oil is stored in a tank that will always provide oil to the pump. unlike the wet sump where oil can move away from the pick up and starve the engine.

 

Steve