R1 Throttle Bodys On Standard Ecu And Loom

[Mr Bob 1]

Right here is my idea for putting R1 throttle body's on an S16 xu10j4 engine and running it with the standard ecu and wiring loom

 

1st off let me say this is just an idea, i dont know much about manifolds and engine managements so i would like to share it with you more knowledgeable people to gain a better understanding of what this project will throw up

 

anyway i have a 306 cabriolet, last year i put a s16 engine in it, the ecu has been remapped at some point and i had a gti6 exhaust manifold fitted, i haven't had it rolling roaded yet to see what I'm dealing with just now but i would like to get some where near 200bhp

 

i dont have much disposable cash so im trying to keep things simple and cheap so that's turbo and superchargers out the window, my thoughts have changed to throttle body's but running them off the standard ecu and wiring loom to keep costs down if this can be done?

 

heres what i have doodled so far, sorry its not the best..

 

 

anyway so far it consists of

 

standard gti6 fuel rail/injectors and regulator

 

a gti6 manifold cut in half

 

silicon pipe joiners

 

R1 throttle bodys

 

a custom made dummy fuel rail on the throttle body's which will just be a hallow tube with will have 4 tubes going into the throttle body's where the fuel injectors would go giving it a vacuum point which can supply the brake servo/vaccum pump and be a post for the air compensator

 

standard throttle cable with custom made holder on to the body's

 

standard TPS made to work the other way round

 

small pipes coming from the throttle body's t peste for the map sensor in the Bosch mp3.2 ecu and regulator

 

standard air compensator wih custom pipes

 

standard oil filler cap and custom beather pipes

 

custom made filter backing plate again silicone tubed to to the front of the body's

 

kinda like this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PIPERCROSS-AIR-FILTE...=item414a6faa5d

 

but with holes for breather pipes and tube ends for fitment

 

inlet trumpets which wil be inside a foam filter kinda like this:

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PIPERCROSS-C6001-PX6...=item51902e79b0

 

i hope you can understand my drawing is its the best way i could describe it graphically..

 

anyway i have a few question

 

where should i put the air inlet temp sensor?

 

do i need to use the throttle body heater (yellow plug)?

 

does the oil breather pipe need the valve in it (on the standard set up its on the breather pipe the goes from the filler cab to the air box)?

 

there is 2 small oil breather pipes that go just above the standard throttle body, i haven't included them are they really needed?

 

i know i will need to take it to a rolling road to get the map and fueling sorted out but im i best ot leave it with the standard injectors and regulator? or standard injectors with a 4 bar regulator? or jut bigger injectors? or should i get a adjustable regulator?

 

will it work?

 

thanks for any help you can give

 

bob

[mxcrazy 0]

Right here is my idea for putting R1 throttle body's on an S16 xu10j4 engine and running it with the standard ecu and wiring loom

 

1st off let me say this is just an idea, i dont know much about manifolds and engine managements so i would like to share it with you more knowledgeable people to gain a better understanding of what this project will throw up

 

anyway i have a 306 cabriolet, last year i put a s16 engine in it, the ecu has been remapped at some point and i had a gti6 exhaust manifold fitted, i haven't had it rolling roaded yet to see what I'm dealing with just now but i would like to get some where near 200bhp

 

i dont have much disposable cash so im trying to keep things simple and cheap so that's turbo and superchargers out the window, my thoughts have changed to throttle body's but running them off the standard ecu and wiring loom to keep costs down if this can be done?

 

heres what i have doodled so far, sorry its not the best..

 

 

anyway so far it consists of

 

standard gti6 fuel rail/injectors and regulator

 

a gti6 manifold cut in half

 

silicon pipe joiners

 

R1 throttle bodys

 

a custom made dummy fuel rail on the throttle body's which will just be a hallow tube with will have 4 tubes going into the throttle body's where the fuel injectors would go giving it a vacuum point which can supply the brake servo/vaccum pump and be a post for the air compensator

 

standard throttle cable with custom made holder on to the body's

 

standard TPS made to work the other way round

 

small pipes coming from the throttle body's t peste for the map sensor in the Bosch mp3.2 ecu and regulator

 

standard air compensator wih custom pipes

 

standard oil filler cap and custom beather pipes

 

custom made filter backing plate again silicone tubed to to the front of the body's

 

kinda like this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PIPERCROSS-AIR-FILTE...=item414a6faa5d

 

but with holes for breather pipes and tube ends for fitment

 

inlet trumpets which wil be inside a foam filter kinda like this:

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PIPERCROSS-C6001-PX6...=item51902e79b0

 

i hope you can understand my drawing is its the best way i could describe it graphically..

 

anyway i have a few question

 

where should i put the air inlet temp sensor?

 

do i need to use the throttle body heater (yellow plug)?

 

does the oil breather pipe need the valve in it (on the standard set up its on the breather pipe the goes from the filler cab to the air box)?

 

there is 2 small oil breather pipes that go just above the standard throttle body, i haven't included them are they really needed?

 

i know i will need to take it to a rolling road to get the map and fueling sorted out but im i best ot leave it with the standard injectors and regulator? or standard injectors with a 4 bar regulator? or jut bigger injectors? or should i get a adjustable regulator?

 

will it work?

 

thanks for any help you can give

 

bob

 

Have a search over on www.306gti6.com a guy did exactly this set up on the stock ECU. If you are intent on doing it this way remember you will need decent trumpets and have them rigidly mounted atleast to make it work any good, the stock GTI6 ecu is remappable, and i suppose your ECU would be similar? i dont know!

 

I thought about doing it like this, but ive just put an order in with Colin Satchell/Sandy brown for one of thier GSXR set ups and am going to run an emerald ECU, do it once and do it properly.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I thought about doing it like this, but ive just put an order in with Colin Satchell/Sandy brown for one of thier GSXR set ups and am going to run an emerald ECU, do it once and do it properly.

 

Hear hear.

[mxcrazy 0]

Have a search over on www.306gti6.com a guy did exactly this set up on the stock ECU. If you are intent on doing it this way remember you will need decent trumpets and have them rigidly mounted atleast to make it work any good, the stock GTI6 ecu is remappable, and i suppose your ECU would be similar? i dont know!

 

I thought about doing it like this, but ive just put an order in with Colin Satchell/Sandy brown for one of thier GSXR set ups and am going to run an emerald ECU, do it once and do it properly.

 

I should have maybe taken in some of what i reed, its been remapped anyway so theres no reason it cannot be done again, so ignore that comment. and i meant to say mount the bodies rigidly (might have been read as mount 'just' the trumpets rigidly), ie, no floppy silicone hoses.

[Mr Bob 1]

Have a search over on www.306gti6.com a guy did exactly this set up on the stock ECU. If you are intent on doing it this way remember you will need decent trumpets and have them rigidly mounted atleast to make it work any good, the stock GTI6 ecu is remappable, and i suppose your ECU would be similar? i dont know!

 

I thought about doing it like this, but ive just put an order in with Colin Satchell/Sandy brown for one of thier GSXR set ups and am going to run an emerald ECU, do it once and do it properly.

 

 

My ecu has been remapped in the past at some point (confirmed by ade 4wd) so i guess so, the s16 is a little different from the gti6 when it comes to breather pipes etc so he may have done it one way that not suitable for me, thats really what im wanting to check, can it be done on the xu10j4 engine, if yes how far away im i?

 

if i had the money to buy 3rd party ecus etc i would, however i would like to see if it can be done this way, thats what makes it a 'project'

[Mr Bob 1]

I should have maybe taken in some of what i reed, its been remapped anyway so theres no reason it cannot be done again, so ignore that comment. and i meant to say mount the bodies rigidly (might have been read as mount 'just' the trumpets rigidly), ie, no floppy silicone hoses.

 

 

Ah i see, silicone hoses are the 1st thing i thought of, im open to suggestions on what would be better?

[hcmini1989 16]

should work mate .from what i can see you have everything covered .fit a breather tank to pipe your breathers into {i think im not 100% as dont know the set up of the gti6)

 

as for the tb heater just unplug it and see what happens while your running everything standard .if its ok leave it unplugged if it throws the mil light on stich a resitor in there so the ecu thinks its still there.

 

if you do a search a few people have done this but with gsxr itbs .the only sh*t part is the manifold .

 

keep your silicone joiners short and butt the bodys up to the manifold .and make sure the tbs are all mounted together rigidly as they move around alot otherwise ,

 

 

i think that is everthing you might have to piss about with the tps abit .and the afm or maf what ever it uses you might have to put a resistor in if your going to do away with it .

 

 

and ive put my air temp sensor inbetween the itbs but im using a gm one

[Mr Bob 1]

should work mate .from what i can see you have everything covered .fit a breather tank to pipe your breathers into {i think im not 100% as dont know the set up of the gti6)

 

as for the tb heater just unplug it and see what happens while your running everything standard .if its ok leave it unplugged if it throws the mil light on stich a resitor in there so the ecu thinks its still there.

 

if you do a search a few people have done this but with gsxr itbs .the only sh*t part is the manifold .

 

keep your silicone joiners short and butt the bodys up to the manifold .and make sure the tbs are all mounted together rigidly as they move around alot otherwise ,

 

 

i think that is everthing you might have to piss about with the tps abit .and the afm or maf what ever it uses you might have to put a resistor in if your going to do away with it .

 

 

and ive put my air temp sensor inbetween the itbs but im using a gm one

 

cool thanks!

 

i was wanting to avoid oil catch tanks to give it more of a ome feel but it a small price to pay, yeah the throttle bodys will be mouted as one unit via a rod going though all of them just as you say need to make sure the throttle bodys and filter are rigid enough, maybe use some stiff rubber hose instead?

 

does the air temp sensor have to be inside the manifold/throttle bodys or is it ok just being stuck to the side of it?

[hcmini1989 16]

cool thanks!

 

i was wanting to avoid oil catch tanks to give it more of a ome feel but it a small price to pay, yeah the throttle bodys will be mouted as one unit via a rod going though all of them just as you say need to make sure the throttle bodys and filter are rigid enough, maybe use some stiff rubber hose instead?

 

does the air temp sensor have to be inside the manifold/throttle bodys or is it ok just being stuck to the side of it?

wouldnt worry to much about the filter mate that can mover about a little .the trumpets will slot inside the tb`s. so they wont move. just butt the bodys up to the manifold then.ive used some silcone hose to join the to together its not ideal but as long as its short its ok .

 

the air temp is ok next to the bodys as long as its roughly the same temp as whats going into the engine

 

as for keeping the rigid ive used some threaded bar run through top as you say and ive used some nuts to lock them all in place.ive allso monted them to a plate on the bottom to make double sure .but im using gsxr itbs not r1 bodies

Edited February 23, 2010 by hcmini1989

[Mr Bob 1]

wouldnt worry to much about the filter mate that can mover about a little .the trumpets will slot inside the tb`s. so they wont move. just butt the bodys up to the manifold then.ive used some silcone hose to join the to together its not ideal but as long as its short its ok .

 

the air temp is ok next to the bodys as long as its roughly the same temp as whats going into the engine

 

as for keeping the rigid ive used some threaded bar run through top as you say and ive used some nuts to lock them all in place.ive allso monted them to a plate on the bottom to make double sure .but im using gsxr itbs not r1 bodies

 

 

ah i see, do you know how different the gsxr ones are to the r1's? would i be better off using them?

[hcmini1989 16]

ah i see, do you know how different the gsxr ones are to the r1's? would i be better off using them?

its up to you mate .i found the linkages fairly easy to do thats the only reason i used them .ive psted a pic up of mine just to give you an idea .ive cut down the silicone joiners now as they were to long and kept coming loose

 

if you have a look at the 205gtidrivers mainpage theres a member called dreamweaver .this is were i got my insperation from .but his didnt work to well the itbs kept coming out off balance at they wernt mounted rigidly enough .and he made less power with them on

Edited February 23, 2010 by hcmini1989

[Mr Bob 1]

cheers!

 

just had a look at the gsxr ones and they do look at simpler to work with, i take it the standard pug tps fits on them ok?

[hcmini1989 16]

cheers!

 

just had a look at the gsxr ones and they do look at simpler to work with, i take it the standard pug tps fits on them ok?

unsure mate im using a megasquirt ecu so ive kept the gsxr tps im sure you could fit the pug one just takes abit of nouse and thinking about

Edited February 23, 2010 by hcmini1989

[Mr Bob 1]

ahh thanks for the info anyway been a big help!

[Baz 421]

if you have a look at the 205gtidrivers mainpage theres a member called dreamweaver .this is were i got my insperation from .but his didnt work to well the itbs kept coming out off balance at they wernt mounted rigidly enough .and he made less power with them on

 

Yes amongst a million other issues, all why he'd probably be pleading with you not to bother!!

[Mr Bob 1]

Yes amongst a million other issues, all why he'd probably be pleading with you not to bother!!

 

 

so your saying its problematic and dont bother?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

so your saying its problematic and dont bother?

 

Yes.

 

I'm sorry, but it's that simple. Some of us - including me - have been there.

 

No one's knocking your enthusiasm for a project, but this is something that whilst it may work, may be a bitch to keep working properly and then you'll respend all the money you thought you'd save undoing it and redoing it properly when you realise it's not as good as it could be.

 

You will make a ballache for yourself.

 

Just to clarify my reasoning, and to not have you think I'm just being a boring old fuddy duddy, my car initially made 196bhp, even on Emerald with R1 ITBs on a homemade inlet. This jumped to 240bhp when I changed to GSXR bodies (very little difference to the R1s), firmly and professionally fixed to a proper inlet manifold.

 

As for your other questions, regardless as to what advice you take and which route you go, more or less, a loom is a loom is a loom, as they all do the same thing.

 

You only need a TPS, IAT sensor (which you can mount anywhere where it will read the air temp getting to the filter/trumpets), coolant temp sensor and crank angle sensor to manage the engine. You don't need a MAP sensor or throttle body heater or purge canister, although if using a standard ECU, some of those (the last 2) may need a resistor to fool the ECU into thinking they are still attached.

 

All of the other wires in the loom will just be power and grounds for the ECU, coil(s), ign amps and injectors, and triggers for relays such as injs or the fuel pump. There may also be a tacho signal wire.

 

So looms are nearly all the same.

 

ECUs however, whilst they do the same job, are different in so much as which ones are more flexible, BUT (more importantly) who really knows how to get the best out of them.

 

Few OE ECUs really offer the complete remappability ( ) required to make the large jump you are intending. This means the possible need for larger injectors. Also there aren't many mappers that can really remap an OE Pug ECU on a rolling road, or on THE road.

 

So in summary I, and a few others are NOT saying what you've obviously spent some time and effort planning won't work, but that your time, effort and money will be far far better rewarded if you do it properly. This means NO silicone joiners and a proper ECU chosen in conjunction with the person you trust to map it for you.

 

My difference was a 20% gain in power, complete driveability, good cold starting and amazing fuel economy, compared to a tempremental bag of sh1t.

 

That's the last I will say on the matter. Proceed if you wish, and hats off if you pull off something amazing by persisting. But OE ECU remapping and even Megasquirt, coupled with homemade manifolds, modified throttle linkages and silicon tubes are a recipe for regrets. I've been there and done it.

Edited February 23, 2010 by DrSarty

[Mr Bob 1]

i see what your getting at

 

what would need done to do it properly? and what would the overall cost be at the end?